Human Resources Committee on Nov. 7th, 2024

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you for that.

I had the opportunity of being on this committee at that time, and I know that we fought, and even brought forward amendments, to make sure that there were timelines involved, so that there could be a level of accountability, so that we could make sure that we could measure the success. That was one of our arguments for making sure we had those timelines.

CNIB also raised concerns about the enforcement and the implementation of the bill being split across several different agencies. Has the shared responsibility created confusion or made it more difficult for persons with disabilities to navigate?

[Diane Bergeron]

I would say, specifically for those of us who work within organizations, that the average person with a disability is just trying to get through their day. It's the effect of the legislation that they feel. However, for those of us who are working in the field, who come in here and speak to folks, it's very difficult sometimes to know who to talk to about what, so it does become very confusing.

I think that often people will call us and say, I need you to fix this, and then we have to go figure out where that particular jurisdiction is, so, yes, there is confusion. I also firmly believe that although there is confusion, there needs to be enforcement in one area. However, responsibility for the standards is not just in one department. It's right through the entire government, and I would say actually right through the entire country, and we all need to be responsible. There definitely needs to be an enforcement mechanism that's easy to navigate.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

That somewhat leads to my next question.

Again with Bill C-81, CNIB previously suggested that the accessibility commissioner should carry out all enforcement and implementation.

Would that still be the recommendation CNIB would make today?

[Diane Bergeron]

I think so, yes. It needs to be done. The person who's enforcing this needs to be the person who has the power to wield the stick, if you put it that way. We need to make sure that the person knows all of what's going on, that they have the cross-perspective and they know all of the different pieces of the puzzle. If we separate it out, it's going to be very complicated.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

I am definitely a big advocate for simplicity. That's why I think less red tape is better, as is plain language. It doesn't matter what government department it is, it's so imperative that plain language be used, so that things are easily understood and easily applied.

We are discussing a barrier-free Canada, and we have heard, not just in this study but in other studies that we have done as well, about where barriers were in place for people who had disabilities. It just made things difficult to access. I'm wondering, from your personal experience, what some of the barriers are that you have faced in accessibility.

[Diane Bergeron]

We have only five minutes.

There are inaccessible websites. There is documentation that needs to be filled in or is provided to me in an inaccessible format.

The best way I could explain it is to imagine that you have to get a document from a professional, which you have to provide to government to ensure that you have access to supports and services. The doctor hands you a document in Braille and says it is everything that you're going to need. Then you have to provide that to a government agency, which provides a document back to you in Braille and asks you to please fill it in.

That is what we face every single day. Despite the fact that we say all of that needs to be made accessible for people, there are still barriers constantly, whether it's with government or out in the community. It happens all the time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mrs. Falk.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Can I ask one quick follow-up?

I know our time is short, but I just wanted to say that if there are other things that come to your mind after this meeting, could you please send those into the committee? It's imperative that we take seriously the barriers that Canadians like you are facing. It matters, and it's important that we hear that.

Thank you very much.

[Diane Bergeron]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you. Mrs. Falk,

We'll go to Mr. Fragiskatos for six minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'll be splitting my time with Mr. Collins.

Ms. Bergeron, thank you very much for being here today, and for your excellent testimony as well.

I'm a member of Parliament from London, Ontario. I have black hair, and I'm wearing a navy jacket with a blue tie.

I have a question for you, which I think will help us understand a bit more about where we are right now. Certainly there's much more to do, but one of the criticisms that's come up in the past, even before I was elected, in fact, is that previous governments of different partisan stripes were more hands-off when it came to the issue of accessibility. Since the introduction of the accessibility act in 2019 for the country, we've seen more of an approach taken that seeks to reverse that. Where have we come from, and where should we continue to go?

[Diane Bergeron]

I can't speak about it from the political aspect, but I can tell you from my personal experience. I've been around a while, and I can tell you, particularly, just as a matter of noting timelines, that on October 24, I celebrated my 40th anniversary of having guide dogs. I'd like to tell you I was two when I got my first one, but I was not. I've been around the disability world for a long time.

We have come a long way. Technology, regulations and legislation like the Accessible Canada Act have made a big difference, but I will tell you that since COVID, I have noticed a significant reduction in understanding, awareness and, I would say, access for people who have sight loss in the community. That's even with government. I don't know why, but we came a long way, and then we went backward.

The Accessible Canada Act enforcement will bring us back to where we need to be, hopefully by 2040. That's the only thing I can see that's going to help me become more independent and have the barriers removed in my life.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

The Canada disability benefit was the largest line item in the previous budget, at $6 billion. I know advocates have called for more, and personally I'm sympathetic to that.

With the focus of some parties on austerity and making cuts, do you worry that this particular support could be cut?

What would be the ramifications if it was taken away altogether?

[Diane Bergeron]

The $200 a month is dragging nobody out of poverty. However, when you're making only $1,000 a month, $200 is significant.

I do worry that it will be taken away. It needs to be increased, not removed. Certainly, any other supports that go along with it to help people with disabilities get through their day and have the barriers removed....

It's a big concern to me as I'm aging. Things are going to happen in my life that are going to add to my disability. I'm worried about where it's going to leave me in the future if I can't have access to services. If that's all taken away, that's going to be a problem.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I'll give my time to Mr. Collins.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have two and a half minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Bergeron, welcome to the committee. My name is Chad Collins. I'm the MP for Hamilton East—Stoney Creek. I have brown hair and I am wearing a brown plaid jacket today.

I came from the municipal sector before arriving here in Ottawa. When I look at the act and its aspirational goals of a barrier-free Canada by 2040, it means that it involves other levels of government and certainly the private sector.

I know that if I had members from Hamilton who sit on the advisory committee for persons with disabilities sitting beside me here today, they would say that for the City of Hamilton, as a municipal partner, to achieve its barrier-free goals, they require resources, whether that's for transportation, to access public information—I think you referenced that earlier—or to safely travel through our city streets or across the street. There are all kinds of infrastructure that need to be upgraded, including bricks-and-mortar improvements to buildings, in order to make my city a barrier-free place to live, work and do other things.

My question is in terms of providing support for municipalities and even our provincial partners. Can you comment on why it's important that the federal government do a bit more in terms of providing additional resources to make those things happen?

[Diane Bergeron]

I think, definitely, there's a cost. There's a cost to making places accessible. Quite honestly, if we built it in an accessible manner to start with, it wouldn't cost that much. I think the federal government does need to help municipalities to get up to speed.

As I mentioned in my presentation, the biggest issue is attitudes, because people who are building spaces are building them and then stopping and going, “Oh, wow. We should have done this.” They're not consulting with people with disabilities who have the lived experience in order to make sure it's made accessible in the first place.

I often say that we have stairs to accommodate ambulatory people. A ramp will accommodate everybody, but we consider the ramp an accommodation when actually the stairs are the accommodation. We don't deal with that stuff when we're building it in the first place. We need to do it right in the first place, and changing the attitudes is going to make a change in the barrier-free access.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Collins.

Ms. Chabot, you have six minutes. Go ahead.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Bergeron, it's a real pleasure to have you. My name is Louise Chabot, and I am the member for the riding of Thérèse‑De Blainville, in Quebec. I won't tell you how old I am, but I am a woman with a good bit of lived experience. I have brown curly hair, and today, I'm wearing red glasses. I commend you for your commitment, despite the barriers that stood in your way over the years.

Before I get to the Accessible Canada Act…. We know governments can have the best laws sometimes, but there is a gap between equal rights and equality in fact. It struck me when you said in your opening remarks that society doesn't understand disability. It's a matter of culture. Culture change can take a long time, but it should not take forever.

What can we do to change people's attitudes and societal culture so that all citizens are equal, whether or not they have a disability?

[Diane Bergeron]

Changing attitudes is easiest when we are in a situation where we are close to a topic and close to a situation. I like to tell people on a regular basis that the disability community, if we want to call it a community, is the only one that you get to grow into as you get older. One day, everybody in this room is going to be a person with a disability, or they are going to be supporting somebody with a disability. The decisions that are made today in rooms like this are going to affect you in the next 15 or 20 years. Be wise and careful with the decisions that you make. It's the same in society; if we talk to people and make them understand that this will affect everybody at some point in time, attitudes will change.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

I'm going to refer to your opening remarks again. As far as supports go, how can the federal government do more through its programs and measures? You said that with the cost of living, more support was needed for assistive technologies.

There are guide dogs, but when you talk about assistive technologies, what tools are you referring to exactly? How can we do a better job of supporting people financially? What would that look like?

[Diane Bergeron]

Adaptive technologies can be anything from a piece of tape you put somewhere to help with orientation for someone who is blind or partially sighted all the way up to a $10,000 piece of equipment, and more, depending on what the disability type and need is.

There are still many employers that will not hire somebody with a disability because they are afraid of the extra costs it would take to hire somebody and make the workplace accessible. On average, it's usually about $500 to accommodate a person with a disability in the workplace.

From a personal standpoint, in the home and in life in general, a national program would provide adaptive and accessible equipment to people with disabilities. There are a few provinces that have those in place, but unless you live in one of those provinces, you have to buy them yourself. A Braille display, which is a refreshable device to assist people who are blind to read Braille and books, sits in the area of about $7,000 to $9,000. The average person on assistance is not going to be able to afford that, so a national program to provide accommodating devices or accessible devices and to help employers would be very beneficial.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

The committee spent a long time studying the Canada disability benefit. The legislation was passed, but the money won't start flowing until 2025, let's not forget. The benefit needs to actually exist before there's any talk of cutting it.

We are still waiting for the regulations. Was your organization consulted on the criteria or requirements for the new benefit?