Human Resources Committee on Nov. 7th, 2024

[Diane Bergeron]

CNIB had an opportunity to respond, just like all other organizations of and for people with disabilities. Every moment that it is delayed is causing people with disabilities to drop deeper and deeper into poverty. The delay is definitely a problem, but the sooner we can get it in, the better. We also understand that government takes time, but it's definitely an issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Ms. Zarrillo, you have six minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Welcome, Ms. Bergeron.

I'm joining virtually today from British Columbia. I'm a middle-aged white woman.

I really appreciated your testimony today about the need for culture change. In this committee, we had the CEO of Air Canada come just to talk about transportation. You mentioned even websites not being accessible. Transportation can be a real barrier; I want to talk about that a bit later on. The CEO of Air Canada thought, “Well, as long as we've got this program with the sunflowers, we're good.”

I tried to mention to him that it's really a culture change that is needed. I look at the road map and the pillars for 2040, and there are seven, but not one of them addresses culture change or attitudinal barriers.

Do you think that's something that should be edited in the road map to 2040? Should there be a pillar about attitudinal barriers?

[Diane Bergeron]

Absolutely.

I am a frequent traveller, since I do international affairs, as well, for CNIB. I just got home from Peru on Friday. There wasn't enough passenger assistance, so they handed me over to a perfect stranger—another passenger. They didn't ask my permission. They said to the person, “Go and help her.” I was grabbed and marched through the Toronto airport by some stranger.

That is the type of experience that happens with programs such as the sunflower program. I believe my guide dog identifies me as a person with a disability. I don't need a sign telling people I have a disability. I think it's important to have it in order to help other people.

Attitude is the only thing that's going to change this world. There's no other way. We need finances, resources, support and legislation, but all of that comes, originally, from positive attitudes and the right attitude. If that's not there, it's not going to change.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much.

I want to talk to you a bit about elections.

However, before we get into that, I will say that the NDP wanted the Canada disability benefit to be adequate. We fought for that. I talked to the minister about it many times. They needed royal recommendation, which was an absolute clue to the fact that the Liberal government wasn't planning on it being an adequate income for persons with disabilities. They already underfunded it before it was even law. As the NDP, we're disappointed that it's not adequate. Certainly, there's no reason the government can't release it immediately.

I will just let the government know in this committee that it's time for it to release the Canada disability benefit. Even though it's woefully inadequate, let's get it started in people's bank accounts in 2024.

Who's in government is important. Culture flows down, so I'm very interested in elections. Right now, there is an opportunity to make some amendments to the Elections Act. I know CNIB has made many comments about being able to have a secure and independent voting experience.

I wonder if you could share how that has evolved over time and what still needs to be done at the ballot box for persons with vision loss or reduced vision.

[Diane Bergeron]

I agree with you a hundred per cent that attitudes come from the top of government.

Here's a fun fact. My dog's name is Carla. She was named after Minister Qualtrough because of the work she did on the Accessible Canada Act.

I used to sit on the Elections Canada accessibility committee. Right now in this country, despite the fact that legislation says we have a right, as Canadians, to vote independently and in secret, it works for everybody except people who are blind. Despite the fact that we have Braille templates and so on, I am still, in this world, not able to go in, check my ballot and be assured, independently, that I've checked the right box and not spoiled my ballot. There always has to be somebody there to help me. I never have the right to vote in secret.

What needs to change at the ballot box is this: We need to come up with a way for people who are blind, partially sighted or otherwise disabled to access the same right every other Canadian supposedly has to go in and do this in secret.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you for sharing that.

I want to finish out this round on transit.

One of the pillars of the 2040 road map is employment. We know public transit can be very challenging for persons with disabilities, and we know there is serious operational underfunding in every transit authority across this country.

I wonder if you could share some of the experiences you've had or have heard about regarding transit, and what you think we can do to make sure persons with disabilities, who are already facing challenges getting into the workforce, can at least get there on transit.

[Diane Bergeron]

If you can't get there, you can't work. That's step one.

This is so important to the CNIB, and to people who are blind or partially sighted in Canada. One of the three key areas CNIB is working on is transit and transportation—accessible journeys. Transit is about going from door to door. It's not just about buses, taxis, planes or whatever. It's also about how I get from my door to the bus stop in the winter, when there's so much snow that my dog can't find the curb. The transit system has to be accessible, or we're not going to be able to contribute to society via employment the way we have the right to and the way we want to.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Go ahead, Ms. Zarrillo. You can ask a short question.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Are there any specific jurisdictions—Metro Vancouver is the one I'm closest to—that you hear about regularly that are less accessible or the hardest to reach on the transit side?

[Diane Bergeron]

Rural areas are the hardest to deal with, but as I said, I travel a lot and I have yet to find the perfect system.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Zarrillo.

Mrs. Gray, go ahead for five minutes.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today. We appreciate it.

I'm Tracy Gray. I'm the member of Parliament for Kelowna—Lake Country, and I'm the Conservative vice-chair here. I'm wearing a black blazer and a mint green blouse. I have shoulder-length blonde hair, and I'm wearing a poppy.

First of all, just before I get into my questions, I want to be clear that the Conservatives supported the Canada disability benefit all the way through, at every stage of the legislative process, and we continue to support it. I just wanted to let you know that. I've expressed this to many disability groups and want to assure you of that here today, as well as any people who are listening.

The first thing I wanted to ask you about is recent reports of a passenger with a service dog who was kicked off a Porter Airlines flight in violation of Canadian Transportation Agency rules. The flight attendant on board attempted to put the service dog under the seat, ignoring clear rules stating that service animals can lie on the floor or even receive their own seat if they're larger service animals. Porter did not initially offer to refund or reimburse this passenger until media attention brought their situation to light.

My question for you, as the president of CNIB guide dogs, is this: How common is it that service animal regulations are being ignored in federally regulated transportation spaces like airlines or railways?

[Diane Bergeron]

It happens very regularly. Often, what I hear—and I take my dog all over the world with me—is, “We would have left you enough space; however, the flight is fully booked and we can't take the space away from a person for a dog.”

I continue to remind people that this is not a pet; she is my guide dog. Although she is a dog, she is still a living, breathing creature, and folding her like a piece of luggage is not acceptable. It still happens quite often.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you very much for that.

We've heard from previous witnesses at this study about how common it is to encounter aging or outdated accessibility infrastructure.

How common is it for those who are blind or who have low vision to encounter any types of barriers that would be in federally regulated spaces or buildings?

[Diane Bergeron]

I would suggest that you attempt to close your eyes and get through an airport and see what happens.

In a lot of older airports and a lot of older spaces, there are all sorts of barriers and things that make it very difficult for somebody who's blind or partially sighted. There's dim lighting for those who have partial sight or low vision, and a lack of tactile indicators. There are echoing sound spaces that are very disorienting; there's no Braille and there are no tactile markings in any way to figure out where you are. I could go on forever.

There are so many ways that we could make it better.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you very much.

As my colleague said, if you have any other thoughts, please ensure that you write to this committee. It's good that we were able to keep this study open so that you were able to come here and be with us today. Thank you very much.

I know we're in the last few minutes of this meeting and the last bit of my questioning here, Mr. Chair. In light of the developments of this week, I would like to move the following motion:

Given that

(a) the Liberal government purchased a $9-million condo on Billionaires Row in New York City for the consul general, Tom Clark;

(b) it was revealed that Tom Clark pays only $1,800 per month for the Billionaires Row luxury condo;

(c) average rent in Canada is now nearly $2,200 per month;

(d) as part of the agreement, Clark pays only $1,800 in rent, $400 dollars less than the average rent payment in Canada; and

(e) as a result, the Liberals are effectively using taxpayer dollars to subsidize Tom Clark’s rent in a $9-million condo, on which, if a Canadian citizen purchased it, the monthly mortgage cost would be roughly $42,000 per month;

the committee report to the House that it condemns this blatant abuse of taxpayer dollars at a time when Canadians back home are facing the doubling of rent prices across the country that is at near-historic highs.

That's the end of the motion, Mr. Chair. Really quickly, this is not a study to take time away from the committee. It should be in order. It simply requests reporting this to the House. I hope we can take care of this very quickly at the end of this meeting.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mr. Fragiskatos, you had your hand up.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

The reality is that it would, in fact, take time away from committee. With that, Mr. Chair, we're talking about a very important issue here, the issue of accessibility. I know members around the table, from all parties, at least I think all parties, have been looking forward to this meeting, and I move that we adjourn debate on the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We have a motion to adjourn debate on the motion introduced by Mrs. Gray.

We will go to a recorded vote.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

The motion has been approved to adjourn debate on the motion. We will now go to Mr. Van Bynen.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My name is Tony Van Bynen. I'm the member of Parliament for Newmarket—Aurora. I was the mayor of Newmarket for 12 years. I had some excellent opportunities to get engaged with our community. I'm wearing a blue jacket, and I have a noticeable absence of the blond hair I had when I was young.

Some things I am really proud of in our community are the way some service clubs are getting engaged with the seeing-eye dog initiative. I believe that Lions Clubs has been raising money to make seeing-eye dogs available for people who are blind. It also has an initiative that it asked me to be involved with, which was setting up a separate, leash-free dog park for service dogs. One barrier it has run into is that it inhibits the relationship between the service dog and the person it is taking care of. That project has not gone forward, so I'm taking advantage of your experience with the guide dogs to get your opinion on that.

[Diane Bergeron]

I would say that they have done this successfully in Halifax, which has a service dog park. They've opened it up to people with disabilities and their service animals. However, it is equally important to puppy raisers—the people who raise these beautiful creatures from about eight weeks old until they're 13 to 15 months old. Those dogs need socialization. They need to be able to interact with other dogs in order to develop good socialization skills among other animals.

Unfortunately, we can't take our dogs to regular dog parks, because there are potentially aggressive dogs, and our dogs are not trained to deal with that. One aggressive behaviour against a guide dog or a service dog could ruin its career and the rest of its life. Right now, there's about a three- to four-year waiting list to get a guide dog in Canada, so we're very careful with our animals. We take them to special places.

I would love to have a service dog park specifically for service dogs. However, in saying that, I also think there is a component that, the minute I release my dog off her leash, I no longer have support. I don't think that should stop us from having a service dog park. I could take somebody to the park with me who could allow my dog to roam and to play with other animals, and who could help me round up my dog when I'm done and support me in the meantime. Personally, I think it's a great idea.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

I've heard of another support mechanism, which is people volunteering. If someone who's blind becomes lost, then they would show their location on their cellphone, and then they would phone a number. Is that the Phone It Forward program that you have, or is this a separate volunteer program that's just—

[Diane Bergeron]

That's separate. Phone it Forward is where we take phones from individuals who are upgrading their phones and getting rid of their old ones. We take the old phone and refurbish it. We wipe it clean, and then we provide it to somebody who's blind or partially sighted and who can't afford their own access. My cellphone is my lifeline.

There are two systems right now that are very popular in the blind community. One is called Aira. It is a paid subscription service. Then the one I use is called Be My Eyes. It has an AI feature in it, whereby I can actually aim the camera at this room and it will describe people. Then I can ask it questions, maybe some questions that people don't want me to ask, like “How old is that person?”