Human Resources Committee on Nov. 19th, 2024

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Good morning, committee members.

The clerk has advised me that we have a quorum and that the witnesses are all appearing in the room. We have two members appearing virtually. They have been sound tested and approved.

With that, I will call meeting number 136 of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities to order.

As I indicated, today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the procedures adopted by the House of Commons. You have the option to participate in the official language of your choice by using translation services in the room on the headset. For those appearing virtually, click on the globe icon at the bottom of your Surface tablet to choose the official language of your choice.

If there's an interruption, please get my attention by raising your hand. We'll suspend while it is being corrected. I would like to advise those in the room with devices to please turn any alarms or whatever other noises come from your Surface tablets or mobile devices off, so that they do not cause an issue for the translation services.

Please, to get my attention, raise your hand in the room or use the “raise hand” symbol on your Surface and I will recognize you. Wait until I recognize you by name before you proceed.

Please refrain from touching the boom on your mic because it does cause a popping sound.

This morning's HUMA meeting is together. Pursuant to Standing Order 81(5) and the motion that was adopted by the committee on September the 17, 2024, the committee is commencing consideration of supplementary estimates (B) and ministerial priorities for the return of Parliament and their mandates.

With us today is the Honourable Stephen MacKinnon, Minister of Labour and Seniors.

Is this your first opportunity before HUMA?

I thought so. Welcome, Minister, to HUMA. In the past, we have sat at similar tables.

With him is chief financial officer, Mr. Wojo Zielonka; Ms. Elisha Ram, senior assistant deputy minister, income security and social development; and Mr. Gary Robertson, senior assistant deputy minister, policy, dispute, resolution and international affairs.

Minister, you have five minutes to give opening comments. The floor is yours.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Minister of Labour and Seniors]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the committee, good morning. I hope you won't be too tough on me as a new minister.

I was very glad to receive this invitation. It is an honour to appear before the committee for the first time as Minister of Labour and Seniors, after my appointment this past July.

Mr. Chair, workplaces are fairer and workers are safer because of this government. We've provided 10 days of paid sick leave per year, so no one has to choose between staying home sick or paying their bills. We're protecting gig workers against misclassification and wage theft. We banned the use of replacement workers during labour disputes. That will be coming into force next year. There's still more to come.

We are implementing a new leave for parents welcoming a child through adoption and surrogacy, as well as new three-day paid leave for employees who face a pregnancy loss.

We are protecting the right to disconnect to help restore our much-needed balance between work and home life.

We advanced one of the most significant changes to Canadian labour law in decades, which was banning replacement workers during strikes or lockouts. Replacement workers can prolong disputes, tip the scales at the bargaining table and poison workplaces. We're proud to have put a stop to it.

This government respects the collective bargaining process. This year we successfully supported parties in negotiating new collective agreements. It's not easy and I look forward to the opportunity to talk more about this today with you and the members, Mr. Chair. When parties put in the work at the table, negotiated agreements are possible and are always the best way forward.

I'm also proud of the work we've done for seniors. We've backed our seniors and helped make life more affordable, allowing them to age with dignity. We introduced the Canadian dental care plan, with nearly three million seniors now enrolled and one million having received care.

We increased the OAS for the most vulnerable seniors—those 75 and over. That's three million people receiving an extra $1,000 every year. We increased the GIS, the guaranteed income supplement, and raised the earnings exemption so that working seniors can keep more of what they earn. We reversed the previous government's plan to raise the retirement age to 67, saving the retirements of one million seniors every year.

The work continues, work that I am honoured to undertake. In August, I announced the latest call for proposals for the New Horizons for Seniors Program. Last year, over 900,000 seniors participated in 3,500 projects funded through the program.

Our government is committed to ensuring a safe future for Canadian seniors, ending the mistreatment of older persons and fighting poverty among seniors. Our approach is working. For instance, in my province of Quebec, the senior poverty rate has dropped 57% thanks to direct investments by our government.

I am very proud of the work this government and this Parliament have done to support workers and seniors. I am delighted to be able to build on my predecessors' achievements and to continue delivering results for Canadians.

I will leave it there, Mr. Chair. I look forward to answering the committee's questions.

Thank you for the warm welcome and the opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

We'll open the floor for the first six-minute round.

Mr. Seeback, you have six minutes.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, in the last three months, you've taken the unprecedented step of twice using section 107 of the Canada Labour Code to ask the Canada Industrial Relations Board to effectively take away from workers the right to strike, so they had to resume their duties. That's unprecedented in the history of the country. It's been universally condemned by labour unions. In fact, Frank Morena, in an email to me, asked why the government should do the dirty work of bad employers.

There is also an issue with respect to a long-standing strike that's been going on in Kanata. I asked you a question about it in question period and I've reached out to the union since question period, and it's said a couple of things. One is that the members and the local have still not heard anything from Minister MacKinnon. The other is that their union members are holding out hope that labour laws are not just for big companies and corporations, and that the help comes before their members and families are completely financially ruined.

That Unifor local has asked you to intervene. What I find really hard to understand is that when unions are asking you not to intervene, you intervene. However, when a union is actually asking you to intervene because we have an employer that is effectively union-busting and trying to break this union—this union took the unprecedented step of asking you to intervene—it hears crickets from you.

You intervene when unions don't want it, and you won't intervene when they want it. How can you rationalize this decision?

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

I appreciate that question.

I'll deal first with the Best Theratronics issue in the second part of your question. Indeed, that is an employer under federal jurisdiction because it produces nuclear devices and medical devices with a very high-skilled, important workforce. Whether or not those numbers are small or large, the situation we have is indeed very aggravating, and I understand the members.

I met with both Unifor and PSAC, which also has members with that particular employer. We've made repeated attempts to communicate with the owner of that business, who has proven elusive not only to the union representatives, but also to us. It is a very aggravating situation when the federal labour minister calls upon an employer to discuss a labour stoppage and there is no response.

I can tell you today, and this has been true for many days and weeks now, that I've asked the department for options to deal with this situation. Not presenting oneself at the bargaining table and responding to good-faith offers from employee representatives is not okay. It cannot stand. You can be certain, Mr. Seeback, that I'll be addressing it.

With respect to section 107 more generally, I would maintain that it was the most pro-labour decision possible in both the case of rail and the case of the ports. The Canadian economy was bleeding hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars a day and was faced with more staggering losses. I had interventions from—

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I'm sorry, Minister. I didn't ask you to rationalize your decision with respect to those two things, so I don't need to hear your rationalization.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

What are you asking me, then?

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

My question was on why, when a union's asking you to intervene, you don't. You've delivered some more thin gruel today for this Unifor local. They've asked you to intervene. It's an unprecedented step for a union to ask a minister to make a referral, and you continue to use flowery words: I've asked my department for information and options.

You've got lots of options. In fact, in the last three months, you've used section 107 in an unprecedented fashion. Now you actually have the opportunity to benefit a group of workers where an employer is acting in incredibly bad faith, and has been doing so for months. I know you've received the information. They've forwarded you the information about how this employer has called the workers lazy and is threatening to just never come to the table. He has not come to the table.

Why won't you exercise your power to benefit this union when you're so easily available to exercise your power in other circumstances? That's the question.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Seeback, I think I just answered that question. The fact is that we have a non-responsive owner. We have a situation where people have been out on strike for many months now. That is unfortunate and unacceptable in a world where the employer refuses to negotiate. We are going to be addressing this situation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have six seconds.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

As per your answer in question period, your answer today will provide very cold comfort for these workers who are facing a Christmas without a job.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Seeback.

We'll go to Mr. Kusmierczyk for six minutes, please.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be sharing my time with my colleague from London North Centre.

Minister, a couple of weeks ago I had the honour of hosting you in Windsor-Essex. We had a chance to tour the Gordie Howe International Bridge, a $6.4-billion investment on the part of this government. It is absolutely transforming our region. It is supercharging our region. A total of 16 million worker hours were committed by the incredible workers of our region to build not only the bridge but also the ports of entry, which we got a chance to tour.

Minister, when it comes to these historic generational investments like the Gordie Howe bridge that our government is making, what impact is it having on Canadian workers?

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

The Gordie Howe bridge, as I think you and I discussed with the folks there and with the workers there on the occasion of our visit, gives me and should give all Canadians confidence that we can get big things done. This will be a trade-enabling, tourism-enabling enhancement to our economy, our national economy and obviously the economy of southwestern Ontario.

I can only tip my hat. It's no surprise to me that responsible for this incredible achievement are the workers of Windsor-Essex. They have pointed the way for Canadians so many times by their hard work, by showing up and putting in the hours to create these nation-building projects. It's an incredible addition to the skyline in our country. I think all Canadians should be proud. I certainly hope they all go and visit Windsor-Essex to see this magnificent engineering and construction accomplishment and also spare a thought for those who have toiled over many, many hours, but I know proudly so, to build this incredible structure.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Minister, I'm sitting next to my colleague from London North Centre. They will be receiving a significant federal investment in the form of a battery plant in St. Thomas, which is completely revitalizing that community in southwestern Ontario. Of course, we know that in Windsor we also received the very first EV battery plant in Canada, the largest auto investment in the history of this country. In my region, the NextStar battery plant is already employing 2,000 construction workers. The first 500 workers who will be building batteries have already been hired. So 2,500 workers will be building batteries for generations to come.

We had a chance to meet with the construction trades—the ironworkers, the millwrights, the IBEW in Windsor—to talk about the NextStar battery plant. What did you hear from that meeting?

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

I was so proud to visit that training facility with you and to meet the representatives of all of the construction trades in Windsor—Essex, as well as national representatives of Canada's building trades. We have worked hard, you and I, and other ministers, to ensure that Canadian content and Canadian workers are maximized in the construction phase of that project. It really put paid to a lot of the criticisms when you see the first 500 Canadians show up for work, for a permanent job at that facility.

I can only say to the people in Windsor—Essex that the future is incredibly bright because of these investments, because of the foresight of my colleagues and because of a dynamic partnership with the Province of Ontario. Those have made it possible to have the automobile industry enter its new electrically generated phase with the benefit of Canadian construction talent and Canadian auto worker talent in those factories in St. Thomas, in the Honda facilities and in all of these other facilities, including the one in Windsor, for decades to come. It's incredible to see. Families know they can settle down in Windsor, can raise a family, can prosper, and can pass on a generational investment to their children and a generational contribution to our economy and to the auto industry.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you so much, Minister.

I just wanted to say, before I turn things over, that it is crazy that two years since we announced the battery plant investment in Windsor, Conservative colleagues still do not support that major investment in auto workers, in my community, in St. Thomas and up and down the 401.

Thank you.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

The silence speaks volumes, and certainly when you consider that these are investments that are being touted by Premier Ford and his ministers, and by Mr. Piccini, whom I deal with a lot. They are, quite rightly, proud of their part in this partnership. I know that silence speaks volumes to the people of Windsor—Essex and to the people of London, indeed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have 15 seconds.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Fifteen seconds?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Now you have ten.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Minister, thank you for being here.

If, at some point, if you have an opportunity to talk about the Conservative policy document or update that talks about right-to-work legislation in Canada, it would be very interesting to hear the implications for labour.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos. That concludes your time.

Ms. Chabot, you may go ahead for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, Minister. As you know, this is an important committee.

The committee recently studied a bill your predecessor introduced to prohibit the use of replacement workers during labour disputes. The idea behind the legislation is to maintain industrial peace, to ensure that bargaining rights can be fully exercised and so on.

Minister, nowhere in your mandate letter, which wasn't renewed, does it say how the Minister of Labour is going to promote the fundamental rights set out in our charters. I am talking about labour rights that everyone respects and wants to advance, specifically, the right to organize, the right to bargain freely and the right to strike. In 1985, they were recognized as fundamental rights, including by the Supreme Court in Saskatchewan Federation of Labour v. Saskatchewan.

I must say, you have been quite busy since you took office. I want to highlight some of the things you've done. You made use, in an unprecedented way, of a new toy the columnists refer to as section 107 of the Canada Labour Code, to steamroll the right to strike and to impose binding arbitration. That was akin to forcing working conditions on workers because the decision was binding.

How do you justify that when free bargaining is a right?

Do you not see that as limiting the right to bargain?