Human Resources Committee on Dec. 10th, 2024

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much.

Mrs. Volk, I think CMHC has lost its way, and I have a lot of hope that, with your leadership, it can come back to what it was supposed to be. CMHC came to be because of post-war needs for affordable housing for new families that were beginning. There are many similar things that are happening now. We have an affordability crisis, a labour crisis and a lot of immigration, which also happened after the Second World War. I'm really hopeful you will open your mind to the idea that CMHC needs a culture shift. I do not discredit that it is a financial institution, as you said, but it is a financial institution with an underlying goal of making sure no one is homeless in this country, and it's not doing that right now.

I'll go back to my question about how the provinces only get 10% of the funding right now, and whether there's anything CMHC can do to shift the balance to where more of the funding can get to the provinces so they can get going.

I also want to add that, on the federal lands front, there is a commitment to federal lands. Again, it's not through housing; it's through Public Services and Procurement Canada, which I believe is also a mistake, because Public Services and Procurement Canada doesn't have the same thoughts, understanding and feelings about how we need to get housing built.

Can you comment on whether you think CMHC has a role to play in getting housing built on federal lands and whether there is an opportunity—and this comes to me from my friends across the country who are working on housing—to get ahead of it and make sure there is CMHC funding in place for federal lands for not-for-profits? They cannot compete with private corporations. There's a major disadvantage for not-for-profits in this country that continually have to struggle to compete with these large financial organizations that have the ability to leverage billions of dollars, not just millions.

Thank you.

[Coleen Volk]

I'll take the question about the federal-provincial dynamic first.

At CMHC, we are provided appropriations by the government, and we must spend them in accordance with the guidelines that are prescribed to us. We have some programs that are designed for provinces, with money that we can disburse through the provinces through bilateral agreements, and we have other programs that are not through the provinces that are direct—

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Do you have any influence on that with the government?

[Coleen Volk]

I'd like to believe that I can influence some of that, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

The time is almost up. Give us a quick response.

[Coleen Volk]

Yes, I try to influence those as I can.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you. I'm going to need some written responses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Zarrillo. We're over time. You'll have several more chances to get back to those questions.

Mr. Aitchison, you have five minutes.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I heard a lot of talk about partnerships. There's the housing accelerator fund, which I know the Liberals would love to pretend is working.

I'm going to give you some data here that I suspect you probably already have.

Since the housing accelerator fund was launched, the number of homes permitted has gone up only 1.8% compared to the same time period previous to that. According to CMHC data, in municipalities over 10,000 people, housing starts are basically flat. From January to October 2023, there were about 187,000 starts. In the same time period—January to October—in 2024, there were 188,000, so starts have basically stopped as well.

The government is committed to getting 3.8 million new homes constructed by 2031. That's two million more than what's already been forecast and what the CMHC has said we need to do to get back to affordability. We have all these programs and all these funds, billions of dollars—which is borrowed money, I would add—that are supposed to speed up the construction of homes, and it's actually not working. In fact, in larger cities, starts are plummeting. I gave you some data on some of these cities.

Can you speak to me about these secret agreements with municipalities? We've asked to see these agreements with municipalities. We'll use Toronto as an example. There was $471 million. Development charges were raised by 42%, and housing starts are down 40%.

Are there any criteria in these agreements related to the cost to build in these municipalities?

[Coleen Volk]

As related to the cost to build, there are agreements around essentially accelerating the process. By accelerating the process, I suppose you do affect the cost, but the primary purpose of those agreements is around accelerating. By accelerating the zoning, accelerating the approval process—

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

We know that's not working in these deals. Toronto got one-quarter of their $471 million. Based on housing starts being down 40%, will they get the next three-quarters of that $471 million, or will that stop because it hasn't worked?

[Coleen Volk]

As I mentioned earlier, I think it's too early to actually look at the starts. I don't think that's the right measure. This is accelerating permitting and zoning and things, but it won't immediately result in construction. This is still a process. I don't think you'll see it factoring into the housing starts numbers yet, but there will be other commitments.

There were other commitments made. The cities are very close—some are already there and some are very close—to the point where they will be reporting against those commitments. There will be some reporting around that. The way the program works is that if they're not meeting their commitments, they don't get the money. That's the deal.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Then you would agree that a program that's not delivering results isn't worth the program.

[Coleen Volk]

I'm talking about the results that the city has committed to. They need to meet what they agreed to meet in their agreement. If they can't demonstrate that they've done that, then they don't get the money.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Can the committee see those agreements? Can we see what they've committed to? This is a public body using public money and making a commitment for more public money. Can the public see what those commitments are and what you're measuring their success against? I mean, we know that starts are down, but....

[Coleen Volk]

We're just getting to the point now where.... As I said, the municipalities have a requirement to report a year after the signature of the agreement. We're just getting to the point where they would be reporting. As we get those, there will be some reporting of where the cities are versus—

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

You must admit, though, that in committing $4 billion of federal tax dollars, of people's money, to municipalities based on some agreements, it's fair for the people who supplied that money—and for their grandchildren, who will be paying it off—to see what those agreements are. What do they have to agree to do?

[Coleen Volk]

I believe most of the cities—I don't know if they all have, so I would have to check—have posted their agreements. I believe so, but I'm not positive in every respect.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have 30 seconds, Mr. Aitchison.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Let me say this quite simply. Borrowing more money to fund bureaucracies that promise to do better, that clearly are not doing better, that are making the results worse.... In fact, things are getting worse in the midst of a housing crisis. Despite the beautiful partnerships the Liberals like to talk about, and their massive deficit spending, and their borrowing to build bureaucracies, the results are not there.

I really do hope you take a close look at reducing the cost of government and at the Conservative plan to eliminate the federal sales tax on homes and how other levels of government might reduce their charges and fees to make sure that we can reduce the cost of getting homes built in this country. Doing things the same old way that we have for the last nine years has produced bigger debt and fewer homes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Aitchison.

Mr. Long, you have five minutes.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

Before I cede my time to MP Morrice, I just would say that partnerships can be challenging. Partnerships can be difficult at times. For the leader of the party opposite, the leader of the official opposition, to basically imply that mayors across this country are incompetent is not a way to build partnerships.

In the House yesterday, I asked a question about the housing accelerator fund with respect to my city of Saint John. The leader of the opposition came back and basically said that he didn't know who my mayor was, despite the fact that he's been in Saint John four times over the last eight months. I find it hard to believe he wouldn't know who Donna Noade Reardon, the mayor of Saint John, is, but he didn't.

Again, I think leadership works with all levels of government and doesn't insinuate that mayors are incompetent across this country.

I'd like to cede my time to MP Morrice.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have four minutes.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, MP Long.

Mrs. Volk, I appreciate that in this meeting you've already shared that you understand that there is a crisis when it comes to the affordability of housing, particularly when it comes to deeply affordable housing. This is similar to what we've heard from researchers like Dr. Carolyn Whitzman, who has put out some research recently, and following on the questions from Ms. Chabot as well, when it comes to the definition of affordable housing and the impact that has.

As I shared with you before this meeting, in my community, for example, the number of people living unsheltered tripled from 2018 to 2021. It went from just over 300 to over 1,000. More recently, it has gone from 1,000 to over 2,300. It's having significant impacts in communities like mine.

One of the solutions is to ensure that the federal government funds deeply affordable and affordable housing. Have you seen the research from Dr. Whitzman when it comes to the extent to which CMHC is not using its own definition of affordable housing on affordable housing funds?

[Coleen Volk]

I haven't, but I see Nadine nodding her head, so I think she has.