Human Resources Committee on Dec. 10th, 2024

[Nadine Leblanc]

Thank you for the question.

Yes. There is one definition CMHC uses to better understand the core housing need in Canada. It is the 30% definition that most or all of you mentioned today.

We use this definition on contribution-based programs that have the mathematical formula that permits us to reach that level of affordability, like the Canada housing benefit.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Leblanc.

I'd like to talk about a specific example.

The affordable housing fund is a $15-billion fund. That fund has no criteria for 70% of the units. The 30% of units that do have criteria are pegged to 80% of market rent. It doesn't actually use the affordable housing definition of CMHC.

Mrs. Volk, I recognize you're coming into this role, and it's been only about six months or so. However, is this something you intend to at least look at, in order to better understand it?

Canadians have a sense that a fund called the “affordable housing fund”—I think we can all agree—should be funding what CMHC recognizes as affordable housing.

[Coleen Volk]

Absolutely.

I think you touched on a very important point, which is that the word “affordable” has come to mean something different from what it used to. I worked at CMHC from 1996 to 2005. When we talked about affordable housing, we always meant what we now call “deeply affordable”.

Now there's another category of homes that may not be a core housing need, but many are still finding homes unaffordable. We try to identify whether our programs are about this sort of general affordable housing or deeply affordable housing, which is the kind you're referring to. We need to make sure we have programs that address both. We absolutely need programs on the deeply affordable housing side, which is what—

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Actually, Mrs. Volk, in communities like mine, it's both.

One of the concerns is this: For the largest financing program CMHC offers—the apartment construction loan program—only 4% of the units built are funded as core housing. In addition, though, because CMHC isn't using its own income-based definitions, it's leading to both affordable and deeply affordable housing not being built at the rate it could be.

Mrs. Volk, with my remaining time, I'd like to ask whether you could depose to this committee the number of units funded by CMHC, with the rents of the units that were built broken down by program type. Would that be possible?

[Coleen Volk]

I don't know if we have the information, but I'll undertake to see what information we have.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I think it is very important for parliamentarians to have that data so that they can make decisions based on it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Yes, if it is available, would you provide it in writing to the committee, Mrs. Volk?

[Coleen Volk]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

That concludes your time, Mr. Morrice.

We'll now go to Mrs. Gray.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Budget 2024 stated that there would be 3.87 million homes built by 2031, which is approximately 550,000 homes per year. This is 1,515 homes a day, or one home every 57 seconds.

Based on the federal government's current plans and looking at projections, will this goal be met?

[Coleen Volk]

I don't have a good answer for that question, I'm afraid. It's a very good question, but I don't know.

There are certainly many factors that go into that. As we discussed, interest rates, inflation and the cost of goods are a large part of that. It is the private developers who build. We are hoping that they will be active and build. We're doing what we can in terms of our programs, but I don't know.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

That's your plan, I guess—to be hopeful.

[Coleen Volk]

It's to do everything we can to spur development so houses get built.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Based on that, I will note that there were only 240,000 home starts in 2023. The CMHC stopped publishing Canada-wide housing completion data in January 2023. This is the first time in half a century that we don't have data on housing completions in Canada.

Why did this stop?

[Coleen Volk]

It's a very good question, and I know the answer. I'm going to see if I can remember it quickly.

We publish the starts but not the completions.

Nadine, do you remember this? I had a discussion, but I don't recall the details.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

When will you start publishing the completions again?

[Nadine Leblanc]

I believe the same information is available through the report we published on the starts.

We can take that question away.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Can you get back to this committee on when you will start publishing completions again?

[Coleen Volk]

We'll get back to you with the answer as to when we stopped and why, and that will feed into the question of whether we'll start again.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

We've heard a lot of testimony at this committee on a recent housing study about how CMHC policies are adding red tape, costs and delays.

One example that I'll bring up was from Ontario Aboriginal Housing Services, which said that CMHC's requirement for new housing to be built in excess of local building codes adds 7% to 8% to the total cost. It seems like there are a lot of different policies that have been developed at CMHC for people who are accessing funding for housing built above building codes.

Where did this come from? Was this from some type of mandate or direction given by the minister's office, or were these internal policies that were all developed by bureaucrats, by staff, at CMHC?

[Coleen Volk]

They would be in accordance with directives provided by the government.

When we get money for appropriations that we're to deliver in a program, the requirements for the program are established centrally. When we have the programs, there are requirements, for example, for energy efficiency perhaps, or accessibility or other features, depending on the program.

If it's from our housing program side of the business, those are directed by conditions that we get through the central agencies.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Then it's the government that would be directing you to impose these different parameters that we've heard. I just gave one example, but there was a lot of testimony that it's adding more red tape, more costs and more delays. You're saying that the direction comes directly from the government, so the government is causing those effects.

[Coleen Volk]

If it's in our housing programs, yes. We make the determinations of what to do in our insurance programs, but if it's in the housing programs, they would be in accordance with government direction.

I absolutely understand that if we're looking for construction elements that aren't part of the building code, there could be additional costs in that. There is some evidence to suggest that some of those additions—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I'm sorry; we're going to have to suspend while there is an evacuation.

[The meeting was suspended at 12:36 p.m., Tuesday, December 10]

[The meeting resumed at 11:00 a.m., Thursday, December 12]

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 141 of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Members are appearing in the room and virtually.

I would advise those appearing virtually that you have the option of choosing to participate in the official language of your choice, as do those in the room. Translation services are available by clicking on the language you prefer to participate in during the meeting. Please do that before we begin, so you're getting the right interpretation. Click on the globe icon at the bottom of your Surface and choose the official language of your choice.

If there is an interruption in translation, please get my attention by raising your hand in the room or use the “raise hand” icon virtually. We will suspend while it is being corrected.

Please mute all your devices that you have with you so no alarms go off, which can cause injury to the interpreters. As well, please avoid tapping on the mic boom. Again, it can cause popping on the system. As well, please wait until I address you by name before you participate.

During the last meeting, I had to suspend proceedings due to an evacuation, which left approximately 20 minutes remaining in the briefing with the president and CEO of CMHC. Meanwhile, we had already scheduled today's two-hour meeting with the minister. As was agreed to, one part was dealing for an hour with the study of Mrs. Falk, as well as with the supplementary estimates. As chair, my intention is to proceed with the minister's appearance at today's meeting.

If the committee wishes to complete the remaining 20 minutes with the president and CEO of CMHC, I propose that we reinvite her to finalize her two-hour appearance at our next meeting, which is scheduled for Tuesday, December 17. The CEO is not here and if she agreed to come, she couldn't get here in 20 minutes. We do have the minister, whom we've been waiting for.

What is the wish of the committee?

Mr. Fragiskatos, you had your hand up first.