Human Resources Committee on May 5th, 2022

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'm trying to raise my hand.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I'm sorry.

Go ahead, Madame Ferrada.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for tabling this motion and, like her, I understand that this is an important issue right now.

I would support her motion if she will agree to an amendment to invite departmental officials to appear when the minister appears before the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We have an amendment.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Actually, inviting the minister would be enough. We would of course welcome departmental officials, but it is very important for the minister to be here.

Thank you.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Chair, we are agreeable to that. We are dealing with something right now that is just as important, if not more important, since it pertains to long-term housing. So I would invite my colleague to proceed quickly so we can support her motion and return to the witnesses who are with us today.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I can make [technical difficulties] so we can finish with the witnesses after the vote.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mrs. Kusie.

Committee members, we have a motion moved, which was in order, by Mrs. Kusie. There was an amendment moved by Madame Martinez Ferrada.

We will deal with the amendment first. I will need to do a recorded vote because we have some members attending virtually and some here in the room.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We'll now move to a recorded vote on the motion of Madam Kusie as amended.

(Motion as amended agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

I will turn to Mrs. Kusie for three minutes.

It's my understanding that the practice of the committee is to suspend while a vote is being carried. You've used up approximately three minutes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I will cede my time. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mrs. Kusie.

We'll now go to Mr. Coteau.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I will be sharing half of my allocated time with MP Collins.

Ms. Bond, I found your presentation very interesting. On the fact that 19,000 units are currently being built in the city, the last time I checked there were about 80,000 people waiting for some type of community housing in Toronto, but when it comes to affordable housing in general, I think that number would be much larger.

I have a couple of questions.

Number one, when we use the term “affordable housing”, from a Toronto perspective—and I'm asking this because I represent a riding in Toronto—what are we talking about? In the accelerator fund is there an opportunity to look at alternative or non-traditional housing possibilities, including secondary suites, lane homes, garden homes, tiny homes and things like that? Are there opportunities there for the city to work with the federal government to look into that type of development of units as well?

[Abigail Bond]

The short answer to the last part of your question is yes. I think there are lots of opportunities for the housing that is often termed “missing middle housing”, “middle density” and “gentle intensification”. There's lot of opportunity there, and the city is definitely working on some of those policies.

In terms of affordable housing, I would describe two different types of housing in the city that we look to create. One is affordable housing where there's still a link to the market, but it's subsidized, as opposed to community or social housing where the rent that you pay is really linked to your income. With respect to the challenge we referenced with regard to affordable housing, I would just highlight that the stackability of the national housing strategy programs actually relates to affordable housing. If we want, collectively, to build community or social housing, many of those units will need ongoing subsidies in addition to the capital subsidies necessary. That's an even bigger hill to climb to deliver that kind of housing in an expensive urban environment.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you so much for your time.

I'll turn next to MP Collins.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for their attendance today.

I think we need to set the record straight, first and foremost, on the national housing strategy and what it has provided in terms of supports. Just to be clear, to date it's $30 billion for 440,000 units, and that's not just new units but renovation and repair as well. I think that's important to get on the record.

Ms. Bond, I think I wrote this down properly. You mentioned in your submission that 28,000 residential homes per year are approved by the City of Toronto and 15,000 are built. I wrote down here that 60,000 are permitted but not built. We have a Conservative leadership candidate who has tried to portray municipalities as the bad guys for the lack of housing supply. As someone who's been in the municipal field for 25 years, I know full well that municipalities are doing everything they can, and your numbers certainly dispel the myth that's been created by this person.

Thank you for providing that, but can I just confirm I have those numbers right? You said 28,000 units per year, 15,000 of which are built, and 60,000 that have been permitted but haven't been constructed by the developer.

[Abigail Bond]

Yes, I can confirm that those numbers are correct.

You highlighted an important issue for us, which is that whilst we're doing well to actually create housing supply and are seeing our inventory grow at about 1.7% a year while our population is growing at about 1.1%, the challenge is that the market, the supply that's being created, is not necessarily meeting the affordability needs of the population who live in our cities.

That's one of the things that's creating the crunch, and we would be very open to the accelerator helping us not just to see units approved—which is important, and we have our part to play in that—but to see them actually built as well.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you for that, which leads to my next question around the issue of affordability—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Make it as short question, Mr. Collins.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

—and that concerns the administration question versus direct support for bricks and mortar.

Can you comment on where you think the better bang for the buck is in providing support to municipalities?

[Abigail Bond]

I can really only speak on behalf of the City of Toronto. We definitely see some benefits from investment in soft infrastructure to help with the planning process, staffing and resources. However, I think the majority of the funds that we would want to apply would be to more directly for local housing need, such as building and also buying land or investing in existing affordable housing projects, so that we can close the gaps on some of the other national housing strategy programs. I think that would be a real target for us for that money.

The money, potentially, if it came directly to us, would flow through us to non-profits and in some cases to developers who are actively building those kinds of mixed-income, affordable rental housing projects.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Collins.

Because we were dealing with committee business, we will conclude the round and this first hour with Madame Chabot and Ms. Zarrillo.

Are the witnesses okay with staying for another six or seven minutes? I know you were scheduled for the first hour to conclude at 4:30.

I see agreement.

Madame Chabot, you have two and a half minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

You are talking about some important examples, as well as major issues in large urban centres.

Let me to explain my question. In Quebec, people live in urban areas, but they also live in the regions and in rural areas. Ms. Cyr, you talked about how construction costs and inflation may differ from region to region, or from a rural setting to an urban one.

How do you see this in terms of adjusting funding for housing, the construction of new units, and project continuity?

[Edith Cyr]

It is true, costs can vary from region to region. Land can be more expensive in urban areas. People in the regions say that land might not be more expensive, but other things are more expensive.

So the important thing is to have a rent target, because people's income is the same if they are receiving benefits, regardless of the region where they live. So we need to know what the costs and variations in costs are from region to region, as a function of various criteria.

So it is possible to adjust funding programs while taking into account certain realities. We sometimes create categories, recognizing the realities in urban areas and other realities in regional areas.

In closing, I think it is possible to adjust the subsidies by region, while still having a target, namely, rent that is within reach for the household.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

So the target should also be based on income and geared to those with lower incomes and more vulnerable people.

[Edith Cyr]

Rent should not be fixed according to income, but it must be geared to those with lower incomes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I was referring to the portion of income spent on rent. Is that what you mean?