Evidence of meeting #21 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was supply.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Edith Cyr  General Manager, Bâtir son quartier
Jill Atkey  Chief Executive Officer, British Columbia Non-Profit Housing Association
Abigail Bond  Executive Director, Housing Secretariat, City of Toronto

4 p.m.

General Manager, Bâtir son quartier

Edith Cyr

When I talk about the steps that cannot be shortened, I mean there is a limit to what can be accelerated. As the saying goes, you cannot make a plant grow by pulling it out of the earth. There are steps that have to be taken for zoning regulations, among other things. That cannot be avoided. We could of course review those regulations. There is coordination of regulations between the districts of Montreal and central planning, for instance. There is homework for all the municipalities in this regard.

People have talked about enriching the fund you just mentioned. For my part, I said direct investment is needed in housing construction rather than in administrative measures. In my opinion, that is the way we can achieve affordable housing goals. The advantage of this fund is that it allows municipalities to decide how to address affordable housing needs. It would be disappointing if the fund were used exclusively to address the administrative aspects of projects.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Soraya Martinez Ferrada Liberal Hochelaga, QC

If I understand what Ms. Atkey said, the needs can vary from one municipality to another. The fund could help a municipality buy land, for instance, but not all municipalities would necessarily need to help for that.

4 p.m.

General Manager, Bâtir son quartier

Edith Cyr

Precisely.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Soraya Martinez Ferrada Liberal Hochelaga, QC

Ms. Atkey, do you want to comment?

4 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, British Columbia Non-Profit Housing Association

Jill Atkey

Yes, that's correct. I think it relates back to a point that Abi made about flexibility. The needs in every community are going to be different. We have municipalities in our region here in the Lower Mainland and other parts of British Columbia that have gone through and pre-approved non-profit affordable housing. A thousand units in Vancouver have gone through the approvals process. The City of Burnaby has five sites ready to go, pre-zoned for the development of affordable housing, yet they're waiting for funding from—

May 5th, 2022 / 4 p.m.

Liberal

Soraya Martinez Ferrada Liberal Hochelaga, QC

I don't have a lot of time, but just so I know, what you're saying is a bit like what Madame Cyr is saying, which is that instead of giving the money to the municipalities in terms of administration and policy, give the money directly to projects to make sure that it's actually going to the construction and not the administration of the municipality for their zoning and planning.

Is that what you're saying?

4 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, British Columbia Non-Profit Housing Association

Jill Atkey

I think a municipality could be rewarded for having the right processes and streamlines in place, but any money that comes from the federal government needs to be attached to direct spending in affordable housing so it would go into those projects and close the gap that exists in national housing strategy programs right now.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Soraya Martinez Ferrada Liberal Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Chair, I don't know how much time I have left.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

You have two minutes, Ms. Martinez Ferrada.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Soraya Martinez Ferrada Liberal Hochelaga, QC

Great, so we have time.

Ms. Cyr, like Ms. Atkey, you talked about the possibility of reducing the funding gap for projects.

Does that mean that the housing accelerator fund for municipalities should be closely tied to the entire provincial funding structure, for instance?

4 p.m.

General Manager, Bâtir son quartier

Edith Cyr

Who is your question for?

4 p.m.

Liberal

Soraya Martinez Ferrada Liberal Hochelaga, QC

It is for you, Ms. Cyr.

4 p.m.

General Manager, Bâtir son quartier

Edith Cyr

We would that the government programs have the flexibility to complete existing programs and, where there are no existing programs, we would also like to see stand-alone government programs. There has to be some openness because there are many needs and the projects and realities differ from one community to another.

We would like there to be enough openness for the program to be adaptable and flexible so we can meet the goal. So the funding methods have to be rounded out because right now it is quite rate for a single program to provide the total funding. The rapid housing initiative (RHI) makes this possible.

In many cases, we have to look all around to find funding from various sources, and that takes time. That is not the best when you want to speed things up. So if the programs are linked, at least, that would be helpful.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Soraya Martinez Ferrada Liberal Hochelaga, QC

Ms. Bond and Ms. Atkey, how do we level the playing field for community organizations to tap into the programs, especially in the accelerator fund? What can we do to make sure that community organizations and non-profit organizations can go and get help from those programs?

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Mr. Chair, I have no interpretation.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Is it interpreting now, Madame Chabot?

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

There is interpretation now, but was not for the last question.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Okay.

Give a short answer to Ms. Martinez Ferrada's question, please.

4:05 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, British Columbia Non-Profit Housing Association

Jill Atkey

I can take a run at that.

The way to level the playing field, and this is a process under way, is to restructure both the co-investment fund and the rental construction financing initiative, because the landscape has changed since those programs were introduced in 2018.

Abigail touched on it. The need in large urban centres for additional grant money in order to build truly affordable housing has shifted dramatically over the last four or five years, so a restructure of those programs is required. The housing accelerator fund can make up some of that difference.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Ms. Martinez Ferrada.

Madame Chabot, you have six minutes.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Thank you so much, all three of you, for your very relevant testimony today. We could listen to you for hours longer. If there is an issue that encompasses social, human and political concerns, it is definitely housing. Not a day goes by, in all regions and municipalities of Quebec, without the housing crisis being mentioned.

I am wondering about the housing accelerator fund. It is not that I am not an optimist, and I like to see the glass half full, but it is clear that there is a tremendous gap between the supply and demand for housing, not to mention unemployment rates and the fact that some housing is not suitable for families.

Ms. Cyr, in your remarks you asked that the process be accelerated so that this $4 billion fund, which is supposed to be spread out over five years, instead be disbursed in two years, and that the funding be made available immediately. You believe that this would make it possible to accelerate project development rather than merely provide administrative support.

Could you elaborate on that please?

4:05 p.m.

General Manager, Bâtir son quartier

Edith Cyr

Yes, thank you.

The development of housing projects is an obstacle course. If the goal is to build 10,000 units in one year, and we begin 10,000 projects, we will not meet the goal. To meet the goal, we would have to being twice or maybe three times as many projects. For some projects, things start off well, but problems come up along the way, slowing things down. They are finished eventually, but not quickly.

So if we start two or three times more housing projects than the goal, it is definitely possible to reach the goal in the intended timeframe, whether that is two years of five years. But if they are spread out over five years, we will not reach the goal in five years.

We have seen this with the completion of projects in Quebec. For programs that were spread out over several years and where extra ones could be added, we were better able to meet the housing targets as compared to when things were tight, without recurring programming, and when administrations had to choose the exact number of projects. In those cases, the projects were not all completed within the expected timeframe and the goals were not met.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Thank you.

I would like to ask for a clarification. To my mind, there is a distinction, and perhaps I am mistaken, between affordable housing and social and community housing. In Montreal, it was determined that rent of $2,200 per month was affordable housing.

Do you think we rely too much on the private sector as opposed to the community sector in terms of the type of fund we want to establish?

4:10 p.m.

General Manager, Bâtir son quartier

Edith Cyr

I have to say that I do favour community housing.

There is a huge housing crisis and we need more tools. I agree on that. We need a lot of tools in our box. Community housing does nonetheless have a proven record of meeting affordable housing goals in the long term. I would be in favour of increasing community housing goals, even if the private sector is called upon to contribute and is subject to certain requirements.

Yes, I would of course like to see a greater role for community housing.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

I have one final question for you, Ms. Cyr.

It is worrisome to see that, in several Quebec regions, people have to spend more than 30% of their income on rent.

You mentioned rent subsidies in Quebec. Is that for individuals?