Human Resources Committee on Sept. 28th, 2022

[Nosakhare Alex Ihama]

If I can jump in, I think your response is in the question: Is there much flexibility? The answer is no. I think that's a word that we've been referring to in this place.

It's like a new immigrant who has 20 years' experience in banking in Nigeria who comes here, and a Canadian who graduated from the University of Toronto two years ago. They both apply for a job. This one has two years' experience; that one has 20 years' experience. Automatically, the one with two years' experience gets it, because they say, “You don't have Canadian experience.” He doesn't need that. What he needs is banking experience, not Canadian experience. He's applying for a job in a bank. He's not applying for a job to be a Canadian.

When we talk about equity, we have to look at it from every sphere. When you have money set aside, that application form, I can guarantee you.... Again, I've helped review over 100 application forms for organizations. They take the same one that they may use normally for the Canadian market and they just make a few changes. I point to it and say “No, no. You have to recognize that we didn't have the same protection from creditors, the same access to credit. You have to understand that we have been dealing with this....”

The application process for anything, whether you want a job for a new immigrant, you want to apply for funding, you want to apply for credit, you are not.... I was working in the bank, and I didn't get a credit card until I went with my friend to Albion mall to see a woman who worked at the CIBC. She did me a favour by giving me $500 because I'm a new immigrant.

Flexibility is critical to inclusivity. When we are building this program, don't bring people who have been doing programs for the Canadian market—

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Ihama.

I'd also like Ms. Hall to respond...

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Madam Chabot, your time has gone over.

Ms. Hall.

[Alica Hall]

Thank you.

I think there is a tendency with Black-led organizations, even if the money is being allocated by another Black-led organization, to put a lot of reporting and administrative structures in place. For a $20,000 grant, I have a report that I have to fill out monthly. We have to say to them, “Hey, we're not doing this work every month. We're working with a consultant. We don't have something to report on every single month. Can we report quarterly?”

There is this tendency to over-report and put in a lot of administrative barriers. That's why I think there's a desire to ensure that the funding is allocated to the needs of the organization and not just a funding system that is prescriptive. Having an application, filling it out and then reporting every day until you basically end the six-month project isn't really helpful for the organization in terms of actually learning and putting the efforts in where they're most needed.

I agree that, of course, we have to account for how we're spending public dollars, but there is work to be done in terms of the trust with Black-led organizations and putting in administrative processes that make sense for the kind of work that's being undertaken.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Hall.

[Alica Hall]

Thank you for the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We'll now conclude the first hour with Madam Zarrillo for two and a half minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Yes, and I'm okay to have ceded some of my time, because those answers were so important. I just want to dig in—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

That's fine, but I'm going to give you your two and a half minutes now.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Hall was just talking about applications and reporting and administration.

Perhaps you could give us some thoughts on whether the application itself should be a little bit different. You mentioned the reporting and how it is a barrier at this point in time, and how right now the fund is administered through four different groups that I know of. Is that the way to go, or should we think about some changes there as well in relation to this grant fund?

[Alica Hall]

I found the application to be streamlined and good in that sense. It was focused on capacity building. There were set kinds of projects that we could apply for, so that process I found to be efficient.

The reporting process, as I mentioned, I think is still a bit too onerous and not necessarily useful in terms of getting the government and these organizations information that is necessary or that they can action.

The final area was—

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

—how it's administered through four different groups.

[Alica Hall]

Yes.

In this scenario, I would say that if you have to use an intermediary, then, yes, having Black-led organizations that are regionally spread out is important to reaching groups on the ground, but I think the best-case scenario to implement this project, and given the fact that the federal government has already initiated a process to establish an endowment for a Black foundation, would be to have a Black foundation leading this kind of work.

Why? They'll have dedicated staff who are focused only on funding, and if you get the right kind of strategic and research-oriented foundation, they'll be able to do this work over the long term. They'll be able to do research to assess whether or not the funds are actually reaching the targeted demographic. They'll be able to build relationships. They'll be able to do ongoing outreach, so if people didn't get accepted into round one of funding, they'll continue to do that outreach so that they will potentially get funding in round three or round four. This is really all they are focused on and tasked with doing, so they can be really invested in this work.

I think Tropicana has done a great job given that they've taken on this role, but it is a lot of work for a charitable organization to be a funder, to think strategically, to do outreach, and then also to lead a regular day-to-day charity.

I would say that it's best for the government to focus on creating a Black community foundation. I think the Foundation for Black Communities has done a really great job so far in developing research and starting to deliver grants, and that approach should be explored further.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madam Zarrillo.

Thank you to the two witnesses, Ms. Hall and Mr. Ihama. Obviously your commitment and passion showed through in your testimony before the committee today. I want to thank you for appearing.

With that, we'll conclude the first hour of the meeting. We have a few administrative items to deal with when the witnesses are excused.

Again, on behalf of the committee, thank you for your contribution today.

[Nosakhare Alex Ihama]

Thank you so much for having us.

God bless you. We appreciate you.

[Alica Hall]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I would ask for the indulgence of the committee.

As you know, we need to approve a budget for the study we're currently doing. I believe you have it. It has been circulated. It's $9,300 to do this study.

Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the budget?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I see consensus, so the budget is adopted, Madam Clerk.

I would just remind the committee members that this was a one-hour meeting. The committee approved two full sessions, so we'll need to schedule another hour. Looking at Monday, depending on the availability of witnesses, there will be two panels on this issue. On Wednesday, the first hour will be on this study, and the last hour will be on drafting instructions for the report.

I would again remind members that when you're submitting witness lists, the more contact information you can provide, the better, because then the clerk can reach them. Some of you know some of these organizations personally, so if you have direct personal contacts, it makes it easier to line them up for the committee.

Constituency week is October 10 to 14.

We'll start the disability study on October 17.

I know, Madam Zarrillo, you were interested in that.

This is the schedule we will be proceeding with.

Clerk, you wanted to make a comment on the Centennial Flame.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Danielle Widmer]

Yes.

I have a quick comment on the Centennial Flame. As we discussed, the committee requested that we circulate all the old material from June to all the members, but in the meantime, the wonderful people in House of Commons communications and the graphic artists have been updating those documents.

Revised documents, including the householder, sample social media posts and the poster will be circulated to all the members so that you can help us promote the 2022 Centennial Flame award to all individuals in your ridings and outside.

This material can be shared with other members. We're just trying to help promote this to get the message out, with a revised deadline of October 31.

Thank you for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I had forgotten at our first meeting to introduce a new analyst who has joined the team, Matthew Blackshaw.

My regrets, Matthew.

With that, if there's no further business before the committee, I will call for a motion of adjournment.

The meeting is adjourned.