Evidence of meeting #34 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:40 p.m.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for their frank testimony. This is exactly what we need to hear, which is the reality of the situation, and what the federal government can do about it.
I want to follow up on the question from my colleague, Michael Coteau. Why doesn't it work to have Black-led organizations apply for the general funding?
I'd like to hear what both of you think. I'll start with Mr. Ihama.
5:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Congress on Inclusive Diversity & Workplace Equity
Please go ahead.
5:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Nia Centre for the Arts
I'm sorry. The question just flew out of my head.
September 28th, 2022 / 5:40 p.m.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Why doesn't it work to have Black-led organizations apply to the general funding pool?
5:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Nia Centre for the Arts
We have to recall, first and foremost, that Black-led organizations are a smaller contingent of charitable organizations, mostly because we've been underfunded and under-resourced over the years. When programs open up, particularly at the federal level, given that there are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of charities across the country, oftentimes larger charities that have more resources, a dedicated fundraising department, a dedicated development department, years of successful applications potentially as well with the federal government, end up getting funded. They're familiar. They're already in the system. Oftentimes, review committees are familiar with their work and what they do, and say, “Yes, they can deliver on this.”
We've definitely had scenarios where we've applied to programs that are focused on supporting racialized youth to access recreation programs, to access employment, to create a sense of safety and belonging. We apply. We put together an application. We often work with other folks who have been successful, and yet we're declined. When we follow up and ask for feedback, we hear, “It's a very competitive process. We receive thousands of applications. You're up against everybody.” So for organizations that are newer, that are more grassroots, that are doing important and innovative work, but haven't been around as long or not as familiar....
I was in a meeting just last week with a bank representative, who said, “I fund arts organizations across the country and I've never heard of you. How come I don't know you?” They were excited to support our work, but were surprised they didn't know of us. Why? We don't support the general community per se. We're very targeted in supporting Black youth, in supporting Black artists, and have spent most of our time cultivating those relationships and offering those supports.
The general mainstream, whether it's corporations or the government, is not as familiar with us. That's a detriment for us in being competitive and being assessed equitably, not competitively. We need equity in these scenarios. By carving out a separate fund for Black-led organizations, you're able to assess apples to apples. How can I go up against the National Ballet? Everyone knows the National Ballet. Everyone's excited to bring their clients to the National Ballet. But there will be no amazing Black ballet dancer who I can present if I'm not supported to cultivate that talent.
That's why a separate funding system is needed or a funding pot is needed for Black-led organizations, so we can assess their applications with other organizations that are comparative, that are similar. We're also ensuring that we're prioritizing the equity approach. Not all organizations need the same thing and not all Black-led organizations are at the same place as national and larger more mainstream organizations.
That separation in funding is really key to ensuring we're being equitable in our approach and distribution of the funding.
5:45 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Congress on Inclusive Diversity & Workplace Equity
I think Alica has done justice to the question, but if I have to add anything or amplify anything, it's that we need to understand that we can't compare apples to oranges, so to speak. With the injustices the Black communities and Black businesses have faced over time, we can't put the money on the table and say, “Why are they not going? The money is on the table.” Well, look at the 11 generations—11 generations. It was Martin Luther King who once said that they want us to lift ourselves up by the bootstraps. Martin Luther King said, “What if you don't have a boot? What are you going to lift yourself with?”
We need to move from equality to equity. We need to begin to dismantle those systems and look at them. Like I said, the government can't do this alone. You need to call those people to the table and say, “We are about to give them $10 million. How are you going to help? What do you need to change to support this work?” Until everybody is around the table, nobody is around the table.
Why are they not? For far too long they've been held down. For far too long they have been restricted. For far too long they have been limited. It is not just for far too long; even now it is still going on. It is tiring to be Black in Canada. It is exhausting to run a business as a Black person in Canada. I just told you we train on diversity, on Black. We train, but they hire the white. We apply. We do a proposal, and we read later on their website they just hired a company that's led by a white person to come and do anti-Black systemic racism in that organization. Come on.
5:45 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Congress on Inclusive Diversity & Workplace Equity
This is the reality.
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you.
Mr. Van Bynen, you have the floor for five minutes, please.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Tony Van Bynen Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have the benefit of having three Black-led organizations in my community, the NACCA, which is the Newmarket African Caribbean Canadian Association; ABC, which is the Aurora Black Community Association; and the Aurora Black Caucus. I have had a number of conversations with them. I understand, and I hear exactly what we're hearing here as well.
I think we've heard enough in terms of what the drawbacks of this system are, the drawbacks of the systemic problems that you face.
I see that there were four organizations—Tropicana Community Services, Black Business Initiative, the Africa Fund, as well as Groupe 3737. Those are national high-level organizations. What I'm hearing is that organizations like NACCA or the ABC are not getting access because they're grassroots organizations. There's a gap between the distributors of the decision-makers and the people who need the funds because they aren't resourced well enough, and they don't seem to be able to get through.
What recommendations would you have to deal with the gap between the broader distributing group and the people who are actually looking for funding but don't have the resources to apply for the funding?
5:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Nia Centre for the Arts
Just a point of clarification, you're saying that the three organizations that are in your riding also haven't been able to receive funds from the Black-led organizations that were tasked with distributing the funding. Is that correct?
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Tony Van Bynen Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
To start with, they aren't familiar enough with the process. I'm trying to find out how we can make these organizations more familiar with that process.
5:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Nia Centre for the Arts
I think one of the things that was really successful with the Youth Challenge Fund model—a designated fund—was that all of the staff who worked at the fund and the entirety of their roles were focused on building relationships with grassroots organizations, youth-led organizations and young people on the ground.
As for the intermediary organizations that we have now, like Tropicana, Tropicana is in and of itself a charity. It runs programs in Scarborough for young people, safe spaces, after-school programs and so on. Because of this SCPI program, it has taken on the role of being a funder, but that is not it's functional purpose or history. The staffing model that they have isn't actually conducive to being a funder because, for the past 30 years, they have been a charitable organization.
One of the other initiatives that I know the federal government is working on is an endowment, setting up a Black foundation. I would really encourage the government to accelerate and ensure that they are working on that. If you have an organization that is dedicated to distributing funding to these organizations, to building capacity, to supporting organizations over the long term, then you are going to have staff who can do that work on the ground, who can build relationships, who can go out and host focus groups, who can meet organizations in their communities.
We did have one of the representatives from the Africa Centre come over here. They are in Edmonton. They came to Toronto to meet some of the organizations on the ground. They had to hire all new staff. It was a very quick process for them. They didn't really have the infrastructure to be able to do that necessary outreach to ensure that they are reaching more rural communities, more emergent groups.
I think ensuring that there is either adequate staffing at the intermediary organization that's chosen so that they can do outreach.... I know from working at the Youth Challenge Fund that we worked a lot of nights. We went out into communities late at night. We were in Scarborough. We were at Jane and Finch. We were hanging out at the community centre to let young people know that this grant was available to them, to socialize and think about what ideas they would want to bring to life and what they would want to see in their community.
You need to be there on the ground. These are not communities that have strong relationships or ties to government. We really need a staffing model and a funding model. II would suggest that the preference is to have a Black community foundation that can be there for the long term and can actually focus on just building capacity and building relationships instead of trying to be a charity and a fund
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON
Well, if that's the case, I won't ask a question.
I just want to say thank you so much to both of you for being here and sharing your expertise and your knowledge gained. We can't do this alone. Even looking for ways to find faults within the program to help build it, to discuss things like the return on investment, how the collaborative models work to create improvement, this is what we're here to do. I just want to say thank you for contributing to a program that I think is working, which I think is great. It also is new and innovative. It's going to continue to grow.
Thank you so much for your contribution and for being here today.
5:55 p.m.
Executive Director, Nia Centre for the Arts
Thank you for doing this important work.
5:55 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Congress on Inclusive Diversity & Workplace Equity
Thank you.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
5:55 p.m.
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The question I would like to ask is along the same lines as Ms. Hall's answer to the question about the objectives of the program.
Ms. Hall, you said that the program should certainly be refined. The program is supposed to meet needs. I myself am not familiar with it. Is it too administratively cumbersome?
I ask because there was a report in the media about concerns raised by black-led organizations. The applications of these organizations had been rejected as they did not meet the eligibility criteria for black leadership. I don't have time to say more about this report, but is there enough flexibility, agility and knowledge from all quarters that finally the money, which is significant but not off the charts, can really address this?
How can we refine the program and make it more agile?
If you would like to provide a further response in writing, we would be happy to receive it. I think it will be useful for the future.