Human Resources Committee on Oct. 5th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Charles, do you have an answer?

[Sandra Charles]

Yes, pardon me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

If you submit it to the committee in writing, Mr. Dalton will receive it.

We'll now move to Mr. Coteau, for six minutes, please.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I want to say thank you to the officials joining us today.

From what we've heard from past witnesses—the recipients and the folks involved in the administration of the funding—I know this is an innovative, first-of-its-kind type of program in Canada. Many of the organizations in communities like mine in Toronto and across the country know that this program is making a huge difference in their communities. For some of them, it is the first time they've had a funding relationship with the federal government.

Ms. Hall, of the 705 recipients, how many are first-time recipients of federal funding?

[Karen Hall]

I don't have an exact number at my fingertips. What I can tell you today is that the number is very large. These organizations are small, have not generally had previous investments and require additional assistance to build their own organizational capacity in order to be considered for larger grants or other grants.

The funding is going to things like equipment facilities, board planning, strategic planning and helping hire new full-time staff so that it's not only volunteers. These sorts of efforts then allow an organization to be in the running for larger grants and contributions, or to leverage funding from other organizations in the future.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

We heard from Alica Hall, who is the executive director of the Nia Centre for the Arts. I think it was a week and a half ago. She said that for every $100 that foundations across the country spend, about seven cents goes to Black-led organizations.

Do you think the investments we're making today will better position the 705 recipients to compete in an alternative space outside of government in the future by building capacity to seek funds from organizations like the YMCA and the United Way?

[Karen Hall]

Yes, I would say the funding is going to make a difference and better equip organizations to be in the running for additional funding opportunities. We took note of Ms. Hall's testimony last week or the week before, and would underline her point that funding investment is necessary in order to have the capacity to be part of larger granting contribution programs.

I would say, too, that the launch of the call for proposals for the Black-led philanthropic endowment fund earlier this week presents another source of funding and another stream of investment for Black-led organizations. This $200-million fund will go, as an endowment, to Black-led and Black-serving organizations. It will function as a foundation and, in turn, as a grant to other organizations. In doing so, it will provide a stable and permanent source of funding for Black-led and Black-serving organizations in the community. That will, again, help to shift some of those numbers we saw, for example, in the “Unfunded” report that you cited.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I know that as more organizations start to build capacity, more competition builds as well, along with more expertise and more service delivery. Sometimes—and this is way into the future—there may be some overlap by building more and more capacity.

Have you explored any future methods or programs to analyze the work that organizations are doing—for example, collective impact models or any types of specific models—to help better position the government to amplify things that are working and downsize things that may not be working? Is there anything there in the forefront? I know I'm going way into the future, but is there anything the department is thinking of?

[Karen Hall]

Collective impact models are used in other programming within the department.

In terms of the SBCCI initiative, in budget 2022, the government signalled its interest and intention.... It's thinking about the future of the program. As the development or work continues in that regard, different models may be an option, including on collective impact, but there will be more to come.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Do I have time for a final question, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

No, you do not, Mr. Coteau. That concludes your six minutes.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Madame Chabot, go ahead.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the three witnesses for their testimony.

This is the second session we've had dedicated to this matter. We haven't heard from many witnesses so far, but still, three of the people who appeared represented intermediary groups that receive funding under this initiative.

Let me say from the outset that I have no reservations about this initiative and the program the government has put in place. The objectives are good. What I am wondering about, however, given some of the evidence we've heard, are the objectives related to inequality and capacity building, since these kinds of things are more qualitative. How can those supports be measured, whether they come from Employment and Social Development Canada or the intermediary groups? How can we measure the effects of the investments, which are significant, but which may seem less so when brought down to the level of the provinces and Quebec?

Please understand, I'm not asking whether more money needs to be invested. That is not for you to answer. Rather, it would be up to one of my colleagues here to address that, but we aren't allowed to direct questions to our fellow MPs.

So how do we measure whether the objectives are being met? I realize that there are more specific objectives, but there are also overall objectives. When we talk about inequality and capacity building, some results are more difficult to measure than others.

What tools do you have to measure that?

[Karen Hall]

I will ask Ms. Charles to answer that question.

[Sandra Charles]

Thank you for the question.

Let me start by saying that we have developed tools with the intermediaries, tools that include evaluation plans and strategies. At the same time, we are working collaboratively on capacity building, specifically on data collection and evaluation. Clearly, collecting data is very important. One of the ways to measure the impact of our initiatives will certainly be to have evidence-based data collection in that regard.

Another tool we use is conversations. Many of these changes are qualitative. We are talking about a sense of belonging and social inclusion. It's really through engagement, discussions with people and the statistical data that we'll be able to show that we're making a difference.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I have another question, which is about fairness in terms of how money is allocated. In my view, there is a double challenge in terms of fairness when we talk about groups from Black communities, which are perhaps not evenly spread out across the country. There are perhaps more in some provinces than in others.

Is there fairness among the provinces and Quebec in terms of how money is allocated, considering the demographics of groups from Black communities? I realize that some of the money is administered by intermediary groups, but is a sense of fairness taken into account?

You don't have to answer me right away, but do you know how many groups could have been targeted in each province and in Quebec, and how many received money?

My concern is whether the money is allocated with a sense of fairness in mind.

[Karen Hall]

Thank you for the question.

We don't have those numbers at the ready today, Madame Chabot, but we'd be happy to provide that information in writing.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

My next question is about the budget. I'm trying to understand. An additional $100 million was allocated to the supporting Black Canadian communities initiative in 2021, as well as $50 million in 2022.

Are those investments for the same things? In other words, are there three programs or just one?

We also heard some discussion this week about the possibility of a Black-led philanthropic endowment fund, which would target long-term and sustainable funding. So that fund is separate from the one we're talking about here, which ends in 2024, but does it have the same objectives and does it target the same groups? Is this fund meant to provide long-term funding?

[Karen Hall]

Thank you for the question.

The three investments I mentioned are all part of the program. The fund I mentioned runs in parallel. The two programs have complementary goals, but are separate programs.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I have one last question.

It has to do with the program, which will end in March 2024, so in two years. We asked the witnesses we heard from, who represented three of the intermediary groups, how they saw things going forward. I realize that it's up to the government to decide what happens next with programs. However, it seemed important for the intermediary groups to be involved in reviewing the program and any progress being made.

Is this part of the mechanism you want to put in place through the intermediary groups? At least that's what I'm calling them; I hope I'm using the right term.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Give a short answer, Ms. Hall.

[Karen Hall]

Thank you for the question.

The government is in the process of determining the future of the program. That said, I'm sure that the voices of those communities will be at the centre of future activities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Ms. Zarrillo, go ahead for six minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to follow on the topic that Madame Chabot was speaking to.

Ms. Charles, you mentioned earlier that there's more to do, so my question is about capacity and momentum. This initiative has an expiration date. How can the government ensure that the capacity and momentum that have already been built can move forward even after the expiration date of the program?