Human Resources Committee on Oct. 19th, 2022

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

So this is the first major change. The extension from 15 to 26 weeks is really the first change in over 50 years. Is that correct?

[Benoit Cadieux]

That is correct.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

In that extension from 15 to 26 weeks—which, again, will be introduced by the end of this year—how many Canadians do we expect will benefit from this change?

[Benoit Cadieux]

It is expected that this extension will benefit approximately 169,000 claimants per year, who will benefit from additional weeks of sickness benefits beyond the 15 weeks that are currently available.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That is absolutely a significant number, for sure.

We know that EI sickness benefits are one of...there are other options that are available avenues to support Canadians who have to take time off work because they're sick. Can you talk about other long-term disability support, like the Canada pension plan disability support? How does it complement and how does it work with EI sickness benefits? Can you talk about what the differences are that underpin those two programs?

[Benoit Cadieux]

Thank you. That's a great question.

Many employers offer short- and long-term disability coverage to their employees. Approximately eight million workers in Canada are covered by such benefits, and those are the ones we know are covered and registered through the premium-reduction program that the EI program offers.

For most of these eight million workers, those benefits are far more generous than the EI program. They include paid sick days, paid sick leave, for example. That's one type of those benefits. They often provide coverage for up to 100% of that employee's salary.

Those are often the first line of resort for employees who have to take time away from work because they're sick. After that, they can access EI sickness benefits for up to 15 weeks—soon to be 26 weeks—and if they're still sick beyond that, a lot of these workers have access as well to long-term disability benefits or Canada pension plan disability benefits. If they are unable to work for a very long period of time and they're unable to return to the labour market, they can then access, as I said, the Canada pension plan disability benefits.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

So the EI sickness program is really meant to be a short-term program that maintains that connection to the labour force, whereas, for example, CPPD is meant for long-term disability. Is that correct?

[Benoit Cadieux]

That's exactly right. EI sickness benefits tend to be viewed as short-term benefits for temporary illnesses to give time to the workers to recover until they are able to get back to work, whereas there are other benefits and supports available for longer-term illnesses for workers who require more time before they are able to return to work or in cases where they are not able to return to work at all.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You would know as well, obviously, that COVID has changed our thinking about illness and spending time away from work. How is COVID expected to impact the EI sickness program? Have you given that some thought? Also, conversely, how will extending the EI sickness program to 26 weeks help Canadians who are, for example, experiencing long COVID and other symptoms?

[Benoit Cadieux]

Thank you for the question. This is something that we're looking into. I would say that we don't have the data yet to really be able to say what impact long COVID has had on EI sickness benefit take-up. Certainly those who are unable to work due to long COVID could have access to EI sickness benefits, and with the extension to 26 weeks, they will have access to up to half a year of income support in the case where they're unable to work due to long COVID.

I would just add that there are also flexibilities built into EI sickness benefits that allow claimants to receive those 26 weeks of benefits within a 52-week benefit period. So the claimant who perhaps is able to return to work here and there, a few days a week, perhaps a week here and there, and gradually return to work can do so and can spread the use of their sickness benefits over a full year, allowing them to return to the labour force gradually.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk.

Ms. Chabot, you have six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

I say this very respectfully, but we will not be able to get clarification from you on certain questions because there have been political overtones. I understand that you have responded to a colleague in this sense.

Have you made any recommendations? Many bills have been tabled over the last 50 years. All the studies done by experts or scientists on the number of weeks of benefits needed to recover from a serious or long illness—we often talk about cancer, but there are other types of illnesses—show that it takes an average of 41 weeks of benefits.

At the very time of the introduction of the 15 weeks of EI sickness benefits, the Parliamentary Budget Officer was saying that even then it was below what it was 50 years ago.

Currently, I have the impression that we are being told about the bright side. Indeed, many workers have more generous private insurance. But what we want is for benefits to be used for workers who pay into EI and who, in 60% of cases, have no group or private insurance.

Self-employed workers can purchase the special benefits for a premium. This is not the case for regular EI benefits, which affect many workers. In 2022, the government chose to provide 26 weeks of benefits in its budget. It did so despite the result of scientific studies, despite a report from this committee that made recommendations well before the reform consultations, and despite Bill C‑265, passed unanimously by our committee, that increased the duration of benefits from 15 to 50 weeks.

From the department's perspective, after all you've heard, do you at least agree that 26 weeks of benefits will not meet all the needs of workers who pay into EI and who would be entitled to additional benefits? Do you also agree that some workers will be left behind?

[Benoit Cadieux]

Thank you very much for your question.

The average number of weeks of sickness benefits paid, based on the most recent data we have, for 2020 and 2021, is nine weeks. Of all claimants who received sickness benefit, 33%, or about a third, use the maximum allowance of 15 weeks of benefits. It is really these people who will be able to benefit from an extension of benefits to 26 weeks. By going from 15 to 26 weeks, they will be able to receive up to 11 extra weeks of benefits.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

That's your point of view, but maybe you don't see certain elements of the statistics.

People on a meagre 15 weeks of benefits sometimes go back to work under unfortunate conditions in order to accumulate enough hours to qualify for further benefits. There have been witnesses who, suffering from cancer, have had to return to work between chemotherapy treatments because they had no other choice.

I think 26 weeks of sickness benefits is not enough. The bill before us proposes 52 weeks, whereas the previous bill proposed 50 weeks.

The implementation of the 26 weeks of benefits was originally announced for July. It has now been pushed back. What explains the delay in implementing the 26 weeks of benefits?

[Benoit Cadieux]

Thank you for your question.

Initially, the commitment was to have this extension in place by summer 2022. However, due to the pandemic, temporary measures were put in place to enhance the EI program and facilitate access. These temporary measures were applied until September 2022. Because of these measures, many Service Canada resources had to be mobilized to put these measures in place, but also to meet the higher than normal demand.

This explains why the implementation of the extension to 26 weeks of benefits was delayed until the end of 2022.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Basically, this bill proposes an extension to 52 weeks. Depending on what you say, if it is passed in its current form, whether it is 26 or 52 weeks, anything is possible.

[Benoit Cadieux]

Normally, when a change is made to the EI program, it takes at least a year to make the necessary changes to the system. It's not just changing the different systems that deliver the program; it's also training Service Canada agents and changing the procedures and guides that agents use. It's still a lot of work. It's not as simple as changing a number in the law.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Ms. Zarrillo, go ahead for six minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to mention the important testimony that we heard earlier in the week. It became fairly clear in that testimony that there is a gender lens to this work. I have some questions around the gender lens and the study that was done and published in 2021, but also, I have to think that in 1972 they weren't really thinking about putting a gender lens on this work.

My question for Mr. Cadieux is around how the research was done. Was a gender lens applied in this study? I would be interested specifically in what workers pivoted to after the 15 weeks and 10 weeks. They said they didn't necessarily come back. What did they pivot to, and was that data disaggregated by gender?

I have a second question on the gender lens. There is a note here in the brief that the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer sent some numbers forward. We know there is a significant gap in pay in Canada as it relates to men and women, and I'm interested to know whether a gender lens was applied to that budgeting effort.

[Benoit Cadieux]

Thank you for the question. That's an excellent question. There certainly was a gender lens. I don't have all the data right in front of me to be able to answer the question and really break it down by gender. Perhaps this is something we can get back to the committee with a more fulsome answer on.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you. I'll just follow up on that question.

A lot of what we heard about on Monday—and I know there's been a lot of testimony in relation to employment insurance over time—did affect women, in terms of the different kinds of cancers but also in terms of maternity, although there is also parental leave. I just want to get an understanding of what came up in the study around being able to stack some of these benefits around life events. It's been said today that life events just tend to happen, and this bill is really saying, hey, we need 52 weeks for sickness alone.

What kind of feedback do you have around stackable benefits for life events?

[Benoit Cadieux]

Certainly, as part of the consultations that recently concluded, this was a topic that we heard quite a bit of feedback on. Participants certainly indicated that there was a need for flexibility and the ability to combine different types of benefits together, especially when multiple life events occur in close succession.

Currently, up to 50 weeks of EI benefits can be combined when regular and special benefits are accessed in close succession. There are certain circumstances in which only EI special benefits are accessed and up to 104 weeks can be accessed.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

When the information comes back around gender, can you add this one? I'd be interested in knowing about that feedback for stackable or other life events, and whether there was a gender lens you could apply to that too whereby we could see the data for women, gender-diverse people and men. That would be great. Thank you very much.

[Benoit Cadieux]

I can just perhaps add quickly that in general for EI sickness benefits, 56% of claimants are women, versus 44% who are men. Those are the stats that I have with me right now, but certainly we can provide additional statistics to properly respond to your question.