Human Resources Committee on Jan. 28th, 2022

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I will call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number four of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. Pursuant to Standing Order 106(4), the committee is meeting at the request of four members of the committee to discuss service standards for employment insurance claims.

Today’s meeting is taking place in the hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so that you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee. I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants in this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted.

The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of either floor, English or French. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately and we will ensure interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings. The “raise hand” feature at the bottom of the screen can be used at any time if you wish to speak or alert the chair.

For members participating in the committee, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. I will remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

As a further clarification before we begin, I will be giving time because, on another committee, we had a situation where the translation was moving more slowly than the proceedings on the floor. I will always ask if the translation has concluded and if each member has heard what was being translated before we proceed to a vote or a discussion on a motion, so that everybody knows what they're proceeding with.

With that, as I indicated, we received a Standing Order 106 request. The clerk did notify me, so we called this meeting within the timeline allowed to consider the letter that was submitted.

At this time, I will call on Madame Chabot.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, colleagues.

Because it is still January, I will wish everyone very happy 2022. I hope that committee members will soon be able to meet in person.

We are meeting today further to the letter requesting that an emergency or special meeting be called pursuant to Standing Order 106(4). Indeed, Mr. Chair, the request was made because we are faced with an urgent situation involving many employment insurance claimants across Canada who are currently suffering the dramatic consequences of delays in processing of employment insurance files.

For this reason, I would like to introduce a motion. May I go ahead, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Yes, Madame Chabot.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You have all received the motion. I will read it out to be sure that we are all on the same page. After that, I will briefly provide some background.

That the Committee invite the Minister of Families, Children and Social Development and the Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion for a period of two hours each to appear before the Committee no later than February 4, 2022, on the subject of the processing times that exceed the goal of a 30‑day service standard for responding to Canadian Employment Insurance claimants at Service Canada.

I believe the wording of the motion is simple and engaging for these two ministers. As we know, the former is responsible for Service Canada, while the latter is responsible for the employment insurance program. Therefore, I feel the invitation to receive the two ministers responsible for these areas to be quite urgent.

As I was saying, this is an urgent situation. Canadians across the country have been waiting to receive their employment insurance benefits for weeks, even months. This is putting them in unimaginable and inconceivable situations. We have heard a lot of testimony, and personally I would say the situation is chaotic.

This is nothing new. The alarm bells have already gone off for the ministers responsible through emails, letters and media scrums. Everyone is crying out for assistance, and rightly so. I think it is appropriate that the ministers responsible for these areas appear before the committee and answer our questions. The goal is to put into perspective the measures taken to respond to this emergency situation.

Some might say that the committee has other important work to do. I'm thinking of the motions you introduced to establish our agenda. On my opinion, next week we could carry out everything we need to do to in the motion. The other issues are important, but they can certainly wait. For the EI claimants who have been waiting for months, it must feel like time has stopped. It is our duty to do something, hence the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Go ahead, Mr. Long.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Good morning to everybody, all of my colleagues.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for recognizing me.

First and foremost, I want to say I appreciate Madame Chabot's contribution to HUMA. I've been on HUMA with her for two sessions. She is always very thoughtful and brings forward very important, thought-provoking motions.

Having heard Madame Chabot's motion and giving it some thought, I would like to propose an amendment, if I could.

Is it okay, Chair, if I keep going?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Yes.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

The reason I would like to bring forth an amendment is the following. Madame Chabot wants to bring the minister to the committee to answer questions, but I have a few things on that. We certainly know that with omicron, the Christmas period and December claims, there is always a surge in EI claims at that point. What Madame Chabot wants to get at is very important, but I think it would be much better served by inviting officials to the committee.

The reason I say that is that we've been on this committee for several years and thus, of course, it's very important that ministers come here, but to get to the root of this problem, Madame Chabot, I think the officials can speak to the much more technical issues that we need to get to the bottom of. I'm talking about call centre operations, staffing levels and how human resources are being deployed to resolve specific issues. If it's okay I think the motion would be much better with the following amendment. If the committee would indulge me, I would like to read an amendment if that's okay, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Continue.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

It reads: That the officials appear in front of the committee for one hour on January 31, 2022, on the subject of the processing times that exceed the goal of a 30-day service standard for responding to Canadian Employement Insurance claimants at Service Canada.

Again, I think we would be much better served by getting a lot more technical answers as to what's happening. Look, all of our constituency offices get calls, but I think we'd be much better served by having the officials here. That's why I put forward the amendment.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Madame Chabot, you have your hand up.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to react to Mr. Long's amendment. Can I go ahead?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Yes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Mr. Long, thank you for your kind words. I always strive to make a useful contribution for the people that we members represent. In this case, it's an urgent situation.

I understand the amendment, but I totally disagree and I will explain why.

While Service Canada officials play an important role in answering questions, the fact remains that the bureaucratic apparatus serves the politicians, and the accountability lies with the politicians. I feel our two ministers have a responsibility to govern. They need to be heard and we need to be able to ask them questions

I see no reason why we should call officials before calling ministers. I don't think I've ever seen that done. Of course, the officials are welcome. When we call the ministers, the officials are always there too. That's how we have always done things.

In my opinion, we would normally call the ministers and have the officials attend as well. After the ministers have appeared, we can have some time with the officials, of course.

Some aspects are political. As parliamentarians, we must be accountable for this situation in our own constituency offices, and this has to do with the ministers. I feel they are well placed to give us the straight goods and answer our questions on the directives given to officials on how to deal with this situation. That's what we expect, anyway.

So I totally disagree with the amendment. I don't object to the officials appearing, it's the idea that they appear before the ministers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Chabot.

Madame Ferrada and then Mr. Long had their hands up.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to lend my support for my colleague Mr. Long's amendment, given all the extremely important issues right now, as Ms. Chabot pointed out.

I don't want to give the impression that we're minimizing the situation, quite the contrary. This is an extremely important issue. In fact, I have received a few calls about it myself in my constituency office.

In my view, Mr. Long's proposal is very balanced, particularly due to the upcoming committee business. We also need to finish our studies on other extremely important issues.

A good way to approach this would be to have departmental representatives come in to get answers on what I believe are very technical issues. Then we could determine whether we really need to go further.

The committee needs to undertake several other studies, and I'm hoping that we can start doing that together fairly soon.

So, I fully support my colleague's amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Ferrada.

We'll go to Mr. Long. The next on the speaking list will be Mr. Jeneroux, who has his hand up, and then I will return to Madame Chabot, who still has her hand up.

Go ahead, Mr. Long.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thanks, Chair. I'll be very brief.

Through you, Chair, to Madame Chabot, the reason it's much more important to have the officials here is to get the technical and administrative answers that we need. I'm on the government side; it's no disrespect to the ministers at all.

All of us are getting those calls. I applaud Madame Chabot for moving this forward, but we want to quickly get to the root of the problem, and the way to get to the root of the problem—we've been through this many times—is to talk to the officials who have that technical and administrative expertise, and who can really answer the questions.

That's why I proposed the amendment for one hour. After that, I'm hoping we can get on with other committee business and look at all the other motions that other members from all parties have tabled.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Long.

Go ahead, Mr. Jeneroux.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's good to see everybody here. Happy new year from me.

I just have to point out the hypocrisy that Mr. Long is trying to get across with his amendment here. He's saying “no disrespect to the minister”, but we don't want him here because he doesn't know the technical details of his file. Ultimately, he is saying he's not in charge of his file and he doesn't get what's going on in his ministry, so let's bring the officials instead.

That said, I support Madame Chabot's motion, which I believe is very well thought out and proposed because it includes any other officials as well as the minister. In the committees that I have been a part of, generally the minister shows up and brings one or two officials. When there are questions that are just so technical in nature, as Mr. Long points out, the minister defers to the officials who are sitting right there.

I would respectfully disagree with my colleague, Mr. Long, that it is only the officials who can answer these questions. The ministers are responsible for their files. They are the ones who should be held accountable, and that's what our committee is for.

I go back to Madame Chabot's original motion and will be supporting it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Jeneroux.

Madame Chabot, did you have your hand up again?

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

In front of all those watching and listening, especially the people who fell victim to these delays, personally, I would be embarrassed to oppose an urgent meeting with the ministers responsible for this issue.

This is a disturbing situation. As elected officials, we should be concerned about it, and I hope that the ministers responsible are sufficiently concerned to appear before us and fill us in on the situation.

As you know, we could have a meeting on Monday with one of the ministers responsible for this, who would be accompanied by officials. They could then answer the tough or highly technical questions about Service Canada, and that would be fine, but that's not the point. There may be technical problems, yes, but this is political.

I could use the rest of my speaking time to share with you all the emergencies Canadians are facing. By the way, I am not trying to change my responsibilities as a member of Parliament here. It's not our role as members to do what Service Canada does, but we are here for Canadians. What are we supposed to tell people when they have been waiting for seven months?

I may be given a technical explanation, that requests did indeed surge in December and January. Also, the lockdown in Quebec surely resulted in more applications to be processed. In addition, Quebec could be harder hit by identity theft issues. All these contextual factors could help explain things to us. However, I see absolutely no justification for a delay of that magnitude in processing applications, a delay that has left people with no income since last fall. I look forward to hearing the numbers so I can compare them to the information we have.

I recently heard from someone who is waiting, who has no income and will be unable to pay the rent on Monday or child support. A Service Canada agent told them it was impossible to process their file any faster and that they had better find a job.

If this doesn't qualify as a political issue, I don't know what would. I don't know why people are refusing to hear from the ministers, who should be just as concerned about the situation as we are.

To sum up, I support the officials being here, as long as the ministers appear as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Chabot.

Next speaking are Mr. Coteau and then Mr. Long.

Mr. Coteau.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the member for her motion. I will be supporting the amendment to the motion. I do agree with MP Chabot that this is an urgent, serious issue and I think everyone here would agree that it's urgent and it's a very serious matter. But it is also complex and there's a very technical aspect to a ministry of this size and just how large the system is and the complexity that goes into it. I think we would be better served to hear from the bureaucrats who could come in and explain the technical side of this issue so we could determine where the challenges are and go forward from that point. I will be supporting MP Long's amendment. I think it's the right way to go. Again, this is a very serious issue but there is massive complexity to it as well. This is a large system. We have to remember that, yes, the minister is without question responsible for this file, but it is the bureaucrats who look after the administration of the system. Let's go right to the source and figure out what within the system needs to be corrected.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Coteau.

Mr. Long, you had your hand up? No.

Madam Chabot, did you have your hand up again?

Okay. Seeing as there's nobody wishing to speak on the amendment, I will call for a vote on it.

I will ask the clerk to read the amendment so everyone knows what they're voting on.

Madam Clerk, do you have the amendment?