Human Resources Committee on Oct. 26th, 2022

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 40 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons With Disabilities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. There will be members who will be appearing via Zoom.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. For those participating virtually, please use the “raise hand” function before speaking. Click on your microphone icon to activate your own mike. For those in the room, it will be controlled by the proceedings and verification officer. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order, and we appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

You may speak in the official language of your choice. If there is a disruption in translation services, in interpretation, then I would ask you to get my attention and we'll suspend while it is being corrected. I would also like to remind participants that screenshots are not permitted. Should any technical issues arise, as I indicated, we will suspend for a few moments.

Also at this time I'm going to remind members and witnesses who are appearing virtually that if you do not have a House of Commons-approved headset, I will not recognize you. This is for the benefit of the translation services, the interpreters. You can participate in the vote by raising your hand, but if you do not have a House of Commons-approved headset and you are a virtual witness or member of the committee, I will not recognize you.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, the committee will proceed to a technical briefing session on Bill C-22, an act to reduce poverty and to support the financial security of persons with disabilities by establishing the Canada disability benefit and making a consequential amendment to the Income Tax Act.

I would like to inform all members that the witnesses appearing virtually today have completed the technical tests, and interpretation services have been checked and are fine.

I would like to welcome our witnesses to begin our discussion with a technical briefing for up to 20 minutes, followed by questions. I would indicate to the committee that following the 20-minute briefing, if it takes that long—it's maxed at 20 minutes—we will do one six-minute round, as we normally do, after which I will simply open the floor to any question by any member sitting here today—simply get my attention—rather than continuing to go from round to round, if that's agreeable to the committee members.

From the Department of Employment and Social Development, we have Alexis Conrad, senior assistant deputy minister, income security and social development branch and Policy Horizons Canada; and Krista Wilcox, director general, office for disability issues.

We will start with Mr. Conrad.

Mr. Conrad, go ahead.

[Alexis Conrad, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch and Policy Horizons Canada, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the committee for having us with you today.

As you know, earlier this year, the government once again introduced Its bill on the Canada disability benefit, now known as Bill C-22.

I am delighted that the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities is continuing its study of Bill C-22. I am pleased to have the opportunity to help the committee do its work.

Mr. Chair, I will quickly walk through the legislation, and then spend a couple of minutes talking about some of the engagement that has been done leading up to this point. Hopefully, that will leave plenty of time for questions from members.

As you know, Bill C-22 proposes a framework for the Canada disability benefit. If passed, the bill will provide the legal authority to design, administer and implement a new Canada disability benefit.

First, I note that the legislation is framework legislation, meaning that most of the details of the benefit will follow in regulations. This approach is intentional. The aim is to strike a balance between getting a benefit in place to meet the immediate needs of working-age persons with disabilities living in poverty and, at the same time—in the context of “nothing without us”—having time to engage with people with disabilities and the disabilities community, in order to ensure their concerns are reflected in the design of the benefit. Given the complex system of benefits and supports for persons with disabilities in Canada, engaging provinces, territories and other stakeholders is critical to the benefit's success.

Using regulations for key benefit elements, such as eligibility, also recognizes disability as an evolving social construct. This approach will allow for more flexibility as our understanding of disability evolves. We have been very encouraged by the feedback we've received from the disabilities community, the provinces and the territories in this approach.

The disabilities community considers this strong evidence of “nothing without us” and a best practice. Provinces and territories note that, rather than announcing the specifics of the benefit, working with them to see how a benefit would best mesh with their own programming helps them and persons with disabilities at the same time. Provinces and territories have also noted that, by moving ahead with Bill C-22, the Government of Canada is demonstrating that the benefit will actually happen and isn't simply something that will be planned for later. We are asking them to do a lot of analytical work, and this legislation is proof to them that it's needed.

The purpose of the bill, as stated, is to reduce poverty and support the financial security of working-age persons with disabilities. The preamble situates this bill within the current framework of the legal rights of, and protections for, persons with disabilities in Canada, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Accessible Canada Act. It also acknowledges Canada's international obligations under the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

In addition, the preamble recognizes that working-age persons with disabilities are more likely to live in poverty than their peers without disabilities, as a result of economic and social exclusion. The preamble also reiterates Canada's aspirations to be a global leader in poverty eradication, as stated in the Poverty Reduction Act and demonstrated through Canada's existing supports to seniors and families with children.

The bill would provide the Governor in Council with the legal authority to detail the design of the benefit through regulations. These include its basic amount; how that amount would be reduced by other income, such as employment earnings; eligibility criteria for the benefit; the frequency of payments; applications and delivery mechanisms; and reviews and appeals.

The approach of tabling framework legislation, with details to follow in regulation, will enable the government to continue to engage on these design elements of the proposed benefit. The rationale behind the approach is that the government will need to work with persons with disabilities, as well as provinces and territories, on the benefit design. Canada's obligations under the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and the Accessible Canada Act provide that the Government of Canada should engage with persons with disabilities on policy, program and service delivery and design where it affects them.

Through the approach being taken, the government will continue to engage with persons with disabilities through the regulatory process on the benefit design. In addition, engagement through the regulatory management process will allow for the ongoing involvement of persons with disabilities on the implementation of the regulations.

Because provinces and territories play such a central role in providing support to many persons with disabilities, it is imperative that the Government of Canada collaborate with them to ensure that persons with disabilities are better off because of the introduction of this benefit, and that potential negative interactions with existing federal, provincial and territorial measures are identified and addressed.

A key component of the bill is clause 12, which would require parliamentary review of the act, its administration and its operations—in other words, the implementation of the benefit. This review would take place three years after the coming into force of the act and every five years thereafter.

Finally, the long title of this bill mentions “making a consequential amendment to the Income Tax Act”. This amendment is to allow the sharing of tax priority information from the Canada Revenue Agency, such as income information, with Employment and Social Development Canada for the purposes of administering the benefit, in order to determine the amount to which individuals would be entitled. This is standard across most income benefits.

As with most legislation, the bill would come into force on the date set by the Governor in Council.

In the spirit of "Nothing without us : an accessibility strategy for the public service of Canada", persons with disabilities rightly demand to be included in the development of policies and programs that have an impact on their lives. The structure of the Canada disability benefit was based on information gathered from ongoing consultation with stakeholders.

Numerous consultation activities have been held thus far. From June 4 to September 30, 2021, we held online consultations on the disability inclusion action plan , which addressed issues pertaining to the Canada disability benefit. More than 8,500 participants responded to the survey.

Four disability inclusion action plan or Canada disabilities round tables have been held. There was a round table with Minister Qualtrough, MP Ryan Turnbull and disabilities organizations to launch an online survey in June 2021. There was a round table with the Prime Minister, Minister Qualtrough and persons with disabilities later in June 2021. There was one with Minister Qualtrough and Disability Without Poverty, in July 2021, and one with Minister Qualtrough and disabilities organizations later in July 2021.

Four other round tables have been held. There was a round table with disability researchers and academics in January 2022; one with organizations that work with members of racialized communities, which was also in January 2022; one with national disabilities organizations in February 2022; and one with disability service providers later in February 2022.

In addition, we have engaged with other organizations, such as those representing the private insurance sector, given their role in the broader income benefits landscape in Canada.

Currently, community-led engagement efforts are under way to inform the disability inclusion action plan and the Canada disability benefit. Funding agreements are in place with national disability organizations to lead community-level engagement. It is anticipated that the community-level engagement that is currently under way will take place until spring 2023. Funding through ESDC engagement protocol agreements for national indigenous organizations to provide community consultations is anticipated to continue until spring 2023.

We are also engaging with the provinces and territories, given that they provide key benefits and programs to persons with disabilities. In summer 2021, federal, provincial and territorial ministers responsible for social services and disability met for an initial discussion on the proposed benefit. Bilateral and multilateral engagement with provinces and territories has been ongoing. It is expected that ministers will meet again soon, where the proposed benefit is expected to be a priority item.

If and when Parliament passes Bill C-22, the department has extensive plans to engage all stakeholders through the regulatory process to ensure their views are heard and factored into the draft and, eventually, the final regulations. In fact, the ongoing engagement that is already under way is a key input into the regulatory process.

Mr. Chair, I will stop there.

We'd be pleased to answer any questions you have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Conrad.

That concludes the technical briefing. As you can see, it was under the 20-minute allotted time.

Before we begin the questioning round, I was remiss and forgot to acknowledge that we have a substitute member sitting in. Mr. McDonald is joining us today. Actually, he told me he's going to rate me. He chairs the other committee I sit on, so I'm under some pressure, committee members, with him present.

As I indicated, unless somebody objects, we'll do one six-minute round and then we'll just go to open questions from any member who wishes to direct a question. Simply get my attention.

We'll begin, for six minutes, with Mrs. Gray.

You have the floor.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the information here today.

First of all, right now, individuals have the ability to apply, federally, for the disability tax credit. While this tax credit doesn't encapsulate all individuals with disabilities, has there been any conversation around having the tax credit and the Canada disability benefit approval go hand in hand to speed up the approval of the benefit when it's rolled out?

[Alexis Conrad]

I'll start. I'll ask Ms. Wilcox if she wants to jump in as well.

We have been looking at every form of eligibility and assessing them. We've been talking to the disabilities community, the provinces and territories—everyone—about the best approaches. The question around the disability tax credit is an option. No decision has been made. It's something that is still under consideration.

Depending on the approach taken, we obviously will look to see the easiest way for persons with disabilities to access the program. The service delivery aspect of this, making it easy for people to receive the benefit, is critical, regardless of which eligibility tool it is. If it's the disability tax credit, then we will work with the Canada Revenue Agency, but that's still to be determined.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

So that's something you're looking at right now as a potential option; that's what you're saying.

[Alexis Conrad]

Everything is on the table.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Okay.

Clause 8 is about entering agreements with provinces on this benefit. How many provinces' equivalent departments has your department reached out to so far regarding coordinating on this benefit?

[Alexis Conrad]

We have spoken with all of them many times. We have ongoing officials tables that meet on a very frequent basis with all provinces and territories, all of which attend the meetings. The minister, the deputy minister and I have worked closely with them in both a multilateral forum and a bilateral forum. In fact, they've been very encouraged by our efforts to work with them.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Great. Thank you.

Can you table for this committee, broken down by date and province, the meetings your department has had with each province's equivalent department or agency on the Canada disability benefit and its implementation? Is that something you'd be able to provide?

[Alexis Conrad]

I think we can document the efforts we've made. I'll have them sent to the committee after. That works.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Great. Thank you.

Do you have an expected rollout, or a target rollout, for this benefit to be applicable?

[Alexis Conrad]

The legislation doesn't include a date. That's to be determined. There are a lot of processes still ongoing to refine the elements, to decide on the specific elements of the benefit and to implement it. I can say that the minister is keen to move forward as quickly as possible. She's also keen to make sure that we fully meet the needs of “nothing without us”. We engage the community. We work with them through this process. We work with them through the regulatory process. That does take time. We're trying to strike the right balance.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Do you have an estimate of any kind? Are you looking at two months, six months, nine months, a year? You must be working backwards towards a particular timeline so that people with disabilities have at least a general idea of when they should be expecting this.

[Alexis Conrad]

The challenge is that, not having any sense of when Parliament will finish its consideration of the bill, we need to finish that process before we can actually do the regulatory process. We have to figure out all of the engagement parts of the regulatory process.

So I don't have a date to work back from, because I don't know the date that we'll be starting the next phase of the process.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

After the next phase of the process you're referring to, then, assuming it's passed through Parliament, what is the estimated timeline of the next phase to go through the regulatory process? How long are you expecting that to take? What's your best estimate that you're expecting?

[Alexis Conrad]

A regulatory process like this, which is extremely complex, with literally hundreds of elements to it, will take some time. For notional purposes, we start to think about a “12-month-ish” time period. It can be shorter. It can be longer. It depends on the complexity of the program but also the level of engagement.

It is certainly a multi-month process to do regulations and then consult on the draft regulations and bring back the final regulations.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

As you've been working through this...because this was actually legislation that was worked on in the last Parliament and has now been brought forth. As you mentioned, since May there's been a lot of engagement out there, and getting feedback. Do you have some drafts already, based on all the work you've done over this amount of time, or is that really all just starting after this potentially passes through Parliament?

[Alexis Conrad]

I just want to make sure I'm answering the right question. Are you asking about drafts of the regulations?

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Yes, exactly. Do you have some drafts already that you've been working with? This was already something that was worked on even in the last Parliament, and then there's been lots of engagement, you said. Do you have some drafts already, or have those not even been started?

[Alexis Conrad]

We don't draft the regulations until Parliament has finished its consideration of the legislation. We are going through a very deliberative process on the engagement side, as you mentioned, and working also as a department in terms of making sense of it and trying to bring advice forward about what should be in the regulations.

The drafting process is a formal thing that will kick off after the bill has been finished by Parliament.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Just to be clear, based on what you are saying, you are anticipating that this could take, in your best estimate, a year after it passes through Parliament. Is that what you are saying?

[Alexis Conrad]

What I'm saying is that when we formally start the regulatory process, notionally we start to think around that time frame. There are a lot of considerations that have to go into that, including the level of engagement, the amount of time and the input we get from the disability community through that process, because one thing we don't want to do is shortchange them in terms of their critical input to this. We also have to have significant conversations with the provinces and territories, and those do take time.

There are, to be honest, so many moving parts to this that all have to be stage-managed very carefully, so while we're ambitious in terms of wanting to get the benefit brought forward, we have to make sure we do that right, and that will take some time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mrs. Gray.

We now go to Mr. Van Bynen for six minutes.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the time you are taking to help us gain a better understanding of what's being proposed here today.

I have a number of questions. The first one is how you anticipate the Canada disability benefit will interact with the existing provincial and territorial disability benefits.