Human Resources Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2022

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 42 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person and remotely by using the Zoom application.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would ask you to please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating virtually, please use the “raise hand” function. Before speaking, click on the microphone icon to activate your own mike. When you are done speaking, please put your mike on mute to minimize interference.

For those in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. Your microphone will be controlled by the proceedings and verification officer. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order. We appreciate your patience and understanding.

You may speak in the official language of your choice. Interpretation services are available by choosing either English or French if you're attending remotely. I would also advise that unless there are exceptional circumstances, I will recognize those appearing virtually only if they have an approved House of Commons headset.

I would also remind you that screenshots are prohibited when the meeting is in session. Should any technical issues arise, please advise me and we'll suspend for a few minutes to ensure that everyone may participate fully.

Pursuant to order of reference of Tuesday, October 18, 2022, the committee will resume its study of Bill C-22, an act to reduce poverty and to support the financial security of persons with disabilities by establishing the Canada disability benefit and making a consequential amendment to the Income Tax Act.

I would like to take a moment to remind those participating in today's meeting as well as those observing the proceedings in person on video that the committee adopted a motion on Monday, October 24, 2022, that included instructions for the clerk to explore options to allow for the participation of all witnesses and members of the public in the context of the consideration of Bill C-22. In planning inclusive and accessible meetings, the committee has made arrangements for sign language interpretation in both American Sign Language and Quebec sign language for those witnesses appearing in person, and by Zoom for those individuals in our audience.

The sign language interpreters are being video recorded to be incorporated into a video recording of the proceedings today. That would be made available at a later date on ParlVU via the committee's website. To assist the interpreters in their work, I kindly ask all members and witnesses appearing today to introduce themselves when speaking. When I recognize you, before you begin, introduce yourself and speak slowly.

Finally, if a member of the audience requires assistance at any time, please notify a member of the staff or the committee clerk.

I would like to inform all members that the witnesses appearing virtually today have completed the technical test to check their connectivity and equipment.

I would like to welcome our witnesses to begin our discussions with five minutes of opening remarks, followed by questions.

We will begin with Indwell Community Homes and Jeffrey Neven, chief executive officer.

From Reena, we have Gary Gladstone, head of stakeholder relations.

We have Vincent Calderhead, legal counsel, appearing as an individual, but we have not been able to connect with him at this time.

I will start with five minutes for Jeffrey Neven, chief executive officer of Indwell Community Homes.

Mr. Neven, you have the floor.

[Jeffrey Neven, Chief Executive Officer, Indwell Community Homes]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As you mentioned, my name is Jeff Neven and I am the CEO at Indwell.

Indwell is a Christian charity that creates affordable housing communities that support people seeking health, wellness and belonging. Our three core values are dignity, love and hope.

We serve more than 1,200 people with housing and support programs in southwestern and southern Ontario. These include places like Hamilton, London and Kitchener-Waterloo, and smaller communities like Woodstock, Norfolk County and St. Thomas.

One in five people in Canada lives with a disability, and over one million Canadians with disabilities live in poverty. As a leading provider of supportive affordable housing for people with disabilities, Indwell walks alongside many vulnerable Canadians whose income bears no resemblance to the actual costs of living.

In Ontario, for example, the current housing allowance for a person receiving the Ontario disability support benefit is $522 per month. The complete disconnection between the provided housing allowance and the actual cost of housing has produced homelessness, an impossible demand for specialized housing and an oversubscription of every housing subsidy program.

Indwell supports the immediate introduction of the Canada disability benefit act as a vital tool to promote the choice and dignity of Canadians with disabilities. We firmly believe that every Canadian deserves the opportunity to access quality housing of their choice. When Canadians have enough income to access the necessities of living, it creates a pathway for recovery and independence. Adequate income support that matches the cost of living increases opportunities for people with disabilities to make real choices about where they live.

As a supportive housing provider, we also recognize that chronically low disability benefits contribute to the increased cost of providing quality and deeply affordable housing and supports. Currently in Ontario, people with disabilities can cover only a small portion of the actual cost of their housing, requiring reliance on limited subsidy programs and resources. In terms of housing development, this severely impacts the ability of any developer to create a suitable and sustainable business case for housing geared to people with disabilities. When people have the opportunity to purchase their housing from the market, it will fuel the construction of new affordable housing stock by both the non-profit and for-profit sectors.

We strongly support the Canada disability benefit act as a high-impact opportunity to change the lives of people with disabilities in Canada. We strongly encourage the government and all members of Parliament to act and to implement this program.

We believe the impact of this program will be significant if the benefit amount is in keeping with the actual costs of the necessities of life, if the program functions as a direct increase in income with no provisions for clawbacks from any provincial income programs, if housing allowance programs are indexed to current available market rents, if individuals receiving the benefit are empowered to use their income freely and if implementation of the program does not replace existing housing subsidy programs.

In conclusion, the Canada disability benefit act has the potential to transform the lives of those living with disabilities by pulling thousands out of poverty and affirming their human dignity. In addition, it will bring the for-profit housing sector back into providing housing solutions for thousands of Canadians.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to this important bill.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Neven.

Now we'll go to Mr. Gladstone for up to five minutes.

[Gary Gladstone, Head of Stakeholder Relations, Reena]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair.

My name is Gary Gladstone. I am the lead of stakeholder relations at Reena as well as the convenor of the Intentional Community Consortium.

Reena, celebrating our 50th anniversary next year, promotes dignity, individuality, independence, personal growth and community inclusion for people with diverse abilities within a framework of Jewish culture and values. Open to all, Reena provides supportive housing, programming and employment services to over 1,000 individuals with developmental disabilities, including autism and those with mental health challenges.

The Intentional Community Consortium represents 26 agencies that are advocating and building not-for-profit, deeply affordable housing for the most vulnerable in society: those with developmental disabilities.

Reena is the fourth-largest developmental service provider in Ontario, currently operating 32 group homes and supporting an additional 140 individuals in supported independent living units. There are 252 community participants in our daily programming, with over 700 full- and part-time employees. Reena has an overall budget of $75 million.

On behalf of those we support with varied abilities and specifically those with developmental disabilities and severe mental health challenges, I am pleased to be present to support Bill C-22, an act to reduce poverty and to support the financial security of persons with disabilities by establishing the Canada disability benefit and making a consequential amendment to the Income Tax Act. I request that this legislation be passed as soon as possible, with a tight timeline of six months to complete regulations.

As I thank Minister Carla Qualtrough for bringing this important legislation forward, I would also like to thank all members and parties in the House for expediting this bill through the House to committee to have a full discussion.

About 100,000 Ontario adults have a developmental disability. Eighteen per cent to 30% of people in homeless shelters have a developmental disability. Fifty per cent of those with developmental disabilities live with significant medical issues. Ninety per cent of those with developmental disabilities live below the poverty line and require deeply affordable rent for adequate housing, with supports that amount to about $522 in Ontario. Women with a developmental disability are 65% more likely to experience abuse than a typical female.

Honourable members of the committee, as I have said to you before, there is a waiting list of over 40 years for housing with supports for those with developmental disabilities, although things are getting a bit better, thanks to the targeted carve-out of the national housing strategy for this targeted vulnerable community.

Bill C-22 is a vital piece of legislation that will impact the lives of those we support and those with disabilities from coast to coast to coast. We need to pass this legislation as soon as possible with all-party support so that we can immediately get working on the regulations that will address critical issues about the design and structure of the benefit.

I would urge that the following be in the regulations. Number one is a safeguard against provincial and territorial government clawbacks, as we want to ensure that there is a net benefit and that there will not be a clawback from the provinces of any additional funds provided by the federal government.

Number two is indexing for inflation. As inflation and the increased cost of living are on everyone’s mind now, it's imperative that any benefit be indexed to the rate of inflation.

Number three is that we would also like to see representatives from the disabled community at the table when decisions are made with respect to Bill C-22, as well as all disability acts and regulations.

It's imperative that we enact the bill and work on the regulations immediately so that we can get the benefits out to the most vulnerable, those who need them now, as soon as possible. Reena and the Intentional Community Consortium recommend that a deadline for the recommendations and actionable items be no more than six months.

In preparation for this presentation, I have read briefs from many outstanding organizations in the disability sector. I would like it noted that Reena and the Intentional Community Consortium share some of the concerns of the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act Alliance. We would like them addressed—without slowing down the passage of this legislation, when possible—within six months, to ensure that the benefit gets out the door as soon as possible.

“A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members” is a quote attributed to Mahatma Gandhi. Through the proposed act, you can ensure that Canada takes care of those who cannot advocate for themselves. With your support, we need to ensure that those with developmental disabilities are never left behind again.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak in support of Bill C-22 with the request that it be quickly passed into law, with unanimous all-party support, with regulations brought forth within six months.

For further information on Reena and the consortium, please visit our website, www.reena.org. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Gladstone.

We will now open the floor to questions from committee members. We will begin with Ms. Gray.

Ms. Gray, you have six minutes, please.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

I'll start with you, Mr. Gladstone. You made a comment about a timeline. I'm not sure if you saw the testimony on Monday, when we had the minister here and the timeline was laid out. It was stated by both the minister and the officials that it will likely take around 12 months to do regulations. Then, of course, there will be implementation after that, so we could very well be into 2024.

I'm wondering if you have thoughts on that and what difficulties you see with that type of timeline.

[Gary Gladstone]

Thank you.

The first comment I would make is that I would encourage all members of the House, across all parties, to be as co-operative as possible to ensure that those with disabilities get the results they need as soon as possible.

We've indicated six months; I understand that some things move quickly and some things don't move as quickly. Whatever can be done to expedite the process would be most appreciated.

As I was joking this morning, we've just got to get 'er done and make sure that those who require the funds have the funds.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

The other thing I want to ask you about is clawbacks. We know that in the legislation there is no guarantee that clawbacks couldn't potentially happen. I'm wondering if you're concerned about potential clawbacks.

[Gary Gladstone]

I am concerned, as I indicated. I'm certainly hoping that in the regulations there will be a mention and that this will be enough to ensure that this will be the case—and in the negotiations and the agreements with the provinces and territories.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I know that the government has mentioned that they have been doing consultations on this benefit. We know that this legislation was tabled in the last Parliament. Then, of course, with the election, it died, and then it was brought forth again. I'm wondering if you could tell us what level of participation you've had on consultations to this point.

[Gary Gladstone]

We have had many meetings with various ministers and MPs of all parties since this and previous governments were elected, indicating that there is a tremendous need for additional funds for those with disabilities, and in our case particularly for those with developmental disabilities. We have been speaking with many on this topic over the years, across all party lines, with a very positive reception.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Great. Thank you.

Another concern we've heard from organizations and through various media stories, as well as persons with disabilities with financial situations, is about the really unfortunate decision to opt for medical assistance in dying. We had some testimony on this on Monday. These situations highlight further the need to get this type of support to individuals quickly and to do it right.

Have you heard those types of concerns as well?

[Gary Gladstone]

I've heard those types of concerns from many, and it's imperative.... This is Canada. It's time we take care of all our citizens, especially and particularly those with disabilities.

This is an excellent vehicle to take that step. I'm hoping, as I've indicated, that we can take that step and that financial concerns will no longer be an issue.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Great. Thank you very much.

I'd like to ask similar questions of Mr. Neven as well.

I'll start off the top with the timeline. We've heard the timeline of how long this could take and when this would actually be implemented. I'm wondering if you could speak to that, on what concerns you have and what you think the gaps might mean to people you work with.

[Jeffrey Neven]

I would concur that we need to move this legislation forward. It's much needed. I would really encourage all members of Parliament to do whatever they can to move it forward.

The reality is that I was in a conversation just this week with a close friend who is on the edge of becoming homeless because he can't afford his rent due to his disability. Unfortunately, that's happening to thousands of people across our country.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

I'll ask you as well about the consultation that you've had with the government up to this point.

[Jeffrey Neven]

We have reached out to members of Parliament, as well as all levels of government, to raise the issue that people living with permanent disabilities do not have adequate means to cover the basic necessities of life.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

As part of that, when we're talking about outreach, whether or not it's sending some information in, has there been any format that you've been involved in, such as a round table, or anything from a consultative point of view that was looking for really specific recommendations and ideas?

[Jeffrey Neven]

Most of our consultation has been through the housing side of things. In the housing conversation, that directly is about people's income.

I have a deep appreciation for Minister Hussen, who's had multiple roundtables in communities where we've been. He continues to reach out—in my case, as recently as yesterday—to hear about the implications of the lack of housing and the lack of income associated with that.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Right. Was that on Bill C-22, though, or was that on a separate housing initiative?

[Jeffrey Neven]

As I mentioned, our approach has been through a housing lens. As a part of that conversation, income is a key driver in the cause of the housing side of things.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mrs. Gray.

Mr. Collins, you have six minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both of the witnesses for their attendance today and for providing testimony.

First, can I start with Mr. Neven?

Jeff, welcome to the committee. As a former city councillor and past president of CityHousing Hamilton, I know that many of our tenants who are on ODSP and receive it as a support payment struggled over the years to just cope and to purchase the necessities of life.

Can you briefly share with the committee what challenges your tenants would face currently with the disability support payment that they receive from the Province of Ontario? Can you expand upon the housing component, as you referenced in your opening?

[Jeffrey Neven]

Yes. Thank you, MP Collins.

It is actually dire.

As I mentioned, our organization is focused on the approximately seven million people who live south and southwest of Toronto in that area from Mississauga all the way down to Chatham. Across that region, a windowless basement apartment is $1,500. Folks currently living with disabilities have a housing allowance of $522. We have a gap of approximately $1,000 to hit the bottom, the cheapest of the market units available. This is having an impact on people's health, mental health and substance use. In addition to the human impact, the lack of adequate income that folks with disabilities are living with means that they can't purchase what they need from the market.

We're also seeing, as a housing developer and health care provider, that it's limiting the options of the private sector. When I started in this role 20 years ago, our folks were able to find housing at the bottom end of the market in the for-profit sector. There's now a $1,000 gap to hit the bottom of that.

The implications are homelessness and poor health, as has been mentioned today. In some cases, it's leading to death.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Jeff, for that information.

Mr. Gladstone referenced the percentage of those people who are disabled who find themselves in a shelter. I think the stat that he gave was between 18% and 30%. I know a lot of your clients at one point in time, unfortunately, would find themselves living in an emergency shelter in Hamilton or other communities where you have units.

Can you share with us the situation as it relates to the disabled? You referenced your friend. With regard to those people living with a disability who receive ODSP and can't find accommodation—like that basement apartment, even, which is the cheapest one on the market—can you share with us some of the stories for those individuals, some Indwell tenants who may have found their way through the shelter system because they're not receiving the appropriate income support today?