Human Resources Committee on Nov. 16th, 2022

[Matthew Maynard]

Thank you.

We were able to experience that with our own MP. As Karen mentioned in her presentation, we were able, from the beginning, to bring our concern to our MP, to have our MP hear us, to have our MP bring that to the floor of the Commons. I think there is that possibility, then.

But it takes commitment. It will take commitment from our MPs and from our municipal councils to make it a reality so that it truly does become the benefit. In some ways, I would say at the local level we very much experienced it. To me, that makes it a possibility throughout the country.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you.

I just want to say that's a shout-out to John Nater. He's their MP. I just want to have that on the record, because he's a great guy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Ferreri.

Now to close out this round we have Mr. Kusmierczyk for five minutes.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question for Mr. Lupien. I've heard your colleague beautifully describe the need to pass Bill C-22 through this committee and through the House, without amendment, as quickly as possible. He described it as a beautiful gift to persons with disabilities in Canada. I thought that was a beautiful statement to make.

We've just seen a release signed by a number of Quebec organizations, including your own, that supports persons with disabilities and again calls on the House of Commons to pass Bill C-22 without delay. Perhaps you can talk a little bit about the urgency to pass Bill C-22 in this committee and in the House. Why is that so important?

Can you also talk a little bit about the willingness of your organization to participate in the process, that regulatory process, that co-creation of Bill C-22, and, again, talk about what that would look like?

[Paul Lupien]

The cost of living is much higher for a person with disabilities, and they don't earn as much income. Even if they receive a disability pension of $800 a month, they need to come up with the rest. The guaranteed income supplement doesn't increase their income that much. Those who are on welfare, on the other hand, see a difference, because they get $1,300 more.

It's no better if you are in a couple. I didn't qualify for welfare, which forced me to apply for disability and live on only $800 a month. Now I've used up all my registered retirement savings plan money and I'm at the end of my rope. We don't even know how we're going to live together as a couple, because unless we live alone, we can't make ends meet. We've been going to food banks for two years because we have no choice: we don't make enough money.

Something should have been done long ago for people with disabilities to give them a much higher guaranteed income. Anyway, we're facing an emergency across the country, no matter where people live. The cost of living may vary from one place to another, but we have people in trouble everywhere. The sooner we lift people with disabilities out of poverty, the better off we will be.

As another witness said at the beginning of the meeting, sometimes I'm a little ashamed to be Canadian. People with disabilities, some of whom have become disabled over time, are belittled. We're not really part of society anymore, because we can't afford to go out, we can't afford luxuries or anything. That means we can't go to restaurants with our friends, because we can't afford it. It means some things are out of reach.

When people with disabilities retire in Quebec, 32% of their disability pension is clawed back. We experienced that, so my pension will be cut down. Couldn't we be allowed to keep that pension when we retire? Again, the cost of living won't be going down for me. As a person with a disability, I'm in a manual wheelchair and I have to buy gloves to be able to handle it better. Those gloves cost $50 or $60 a pair, and they don't last for 100 years. That's an example of things that we have to buy and that involve additional costs. Whatever disability we have, we always face other costs and, for us, those costs are always much higher than normal.

The main reason this is important is that it will help people with disabilities in Quebec and across Canada to get their heads above water. We're living in poverty across Canada.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have 15 seconds.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay, I have a quick question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

And make it a quick answer.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

This is a question for Mr. Adair.

I know my colleague raised a question about accountability. It is written in this legislation that it will be reviewed by Parliament three years post-implementation and five years after that. Can you speak about the adequacy of those accountability measures that are built into the legislation, the review and accountability measures that are built into Bill C-22?

[William Adair]

I find it satisfactory.

I would add another component, too: How do we know this is making a difference? What difference is it making? What's the impact of providing the Canada disability benefit? It's not just the impact for people who are lifted out of poverty. What difference has it made for people living in Canada, for our country, for our nation, in terms of the untapped potential, work contributions, and talents that will come forward? People will be able to participate in community activities and make our country even stronger.

We need an evaluation component to look at the impact of this benefit not just for the people but also for our whole country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Adair and Mr. Kusmierczyk.

This concludes the first round. We'll suspend for a couple of moments while the witnesses for the second round are cleared.

Thank you to all the witnesses who appeared in the first hour. Thank you for your time.

My apologies, Mr. Lupien, but you did get an answer in during the last questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Welcome back, committee members. We'll resume the study on Bill C-22.

To assist the interpreters in their work, I would kindly remind all members and witnesses appearing today to introduce themselves when speaking, and to speak slowly.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses, especially those appearing virtually. You may speak in the official language of your choice. Interpretation services are available for the meeting. You can choose either French or English by choosing the icon at the bottom of your screen. Please wait until I recognize you before speaking.

For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon. Remember to activate your mike when you're speaking and to silence it whenever you've concluded.

All comments must be addressed through the chair. I would remind all members and those appearing virtually that if there is a disruption in interpretation services, please get my attention. We'll suspend while it's corrected. For the benefit of our translators, please speak slowly so that they can follow the process. If there is a sound quality breakdown from those appearing virtually, then I will not be able to recognize you.

For the second hour, in the committee room we have Rosemarie Hemmelgarn, the parent of a disabled individual; and Michael J. Prince, Lansdowne professor of social policy in the faculty of human and social development at the University of Victoria, appearing virtually. Both are appearing as individuals. We also have Krista Carr, who is appearing as executive vice-president of Inclusion Canada.

I would ask those presenting to respect the five minutes for opening comments so that our committee members will have the chance to question you.

We'll start with Ms. Hemmelgarn for five minutes, please.

[Rosemarie Hemmelgarn, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

My name is Rosemarie Hemmelgarn. I live in St. Walburg, Saskatchewan. I am a retired office administrator, but more importantly, I am a wife and mother of three beautiful daughters, two having an intellectual disability.

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak on behalf of our family and other parents of disabled persons.

Our family's vision for our disabled daughters is a lifetime of inclusion in all aspects of life. Examples include education, owning their own home, being employed and involved in community, having valuable relationships and friendships, financial security, transportation, access to health care and being valued and participating members of society. Essentially, it's the same life as their older sister, a life they can look back on and know that it was worth living.

What follows is the reality I have experienced being a parent of disabled persons in Saskatchewan.

First is advocating. I am a full-time advocate for my daughters. I have had to advocate ridiculously hard for their supports as preschoolers, in the education system, and now in the social services system through SAID and CLSD.

The system is making it so hard to get supports that it seems to me they're hoping you'll just give up. Documents are lengthy, cumbersome and repetitious. Policies aren't flexible. Programs are complicated to access. If you don't have an advocate, you will be at a disadvantage and more than likely won't get any support until you are in crisis.

We as parents are tired physically and mentally. We are forever caregivers. Many are scared to speak up because they might lose supports.

Second is meeting criteria: assessments, testing and medical. I have had to watch my daughters go through numerous humiliating psych-ed assessments so that they could qualify for funding to get supports. We've had to share what I refer to as our “dirty laundry” over and over again to remind us of how much we cannot do instead of focusing on what we can do.

Third are the effects on the entire family. Our entire family is affected daily by having disabled persons in it. They are my responsibility for the rest of my life. Relationships between husband and wife and all siblings are tested. I worry about who will take over once I'm gone.

Fourth is financial security. Families are expected to risk their current and future financial security to care for their disabled loved ones. Adult siblings are expected to take on added responsibilities. The income support disabled persons are currently receiving is already inadequate, and financial support is being stretched. Disability support amounts haven't risen with inflation and are lagging behind. Disabled persons should be able to save money and receive an inheritance or gifted money without having their benefit reduced.

Fifth is being an employed disabled person and having their provincial disability benefit clawed back—for example, SAID in Saskatchewan. My daughter is employed, and she can only keep $6,000 per year of her employment income. After the $6,000 exemption, she loses a dollar from her provincial disability benefit for every dollar earned through employment income. This is clearly a disincentive to work if you are disabled. To top it off, the method the Saskatchewan government uses to calculate the monthly SAID benefit and employment income benefit puts her at risk of getting cut off SAID and having to reapply, and results in her income being unevenly distributed monthly. Saskatchewan Social Services expects employed SAID clients to budget their income.

I'll just leave it at that.

This is my recommendation: Pass the Bill C-22 legislation immediately. Work on the regulations and framework after legislation. Disability organizations, disabled individuals and family members expect to be at the table in the regulation planning.

The CDB must be a generous supplement in addition to provincial benefits. The CDB cannot be clawed back and must be a supplement to enhance provincial benefits, not replace provincial disability benefits.

I want to see the federal government administer the benefit federally and not pass the CDB funding on to the provincial governments to administer. The CDB must be fair, equitable and easy to access with no red tape, and have no barriers for being employed.

In closing, I'm going to pray that Bill C-22 gets passed in legislation immediately, and that the regulations are developed later, in conjunction with the disability community. For a disabled person, it would be the most historic time in history to see Bill C-22 passed and have disabled persons removed from poverty. Even more historic would be the intention of Bill C-22 not getting lost in the future—

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Mr. Chair, we're not getting the interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Chabot.

Ms. Hemmelgarn, could you repeat the last phrase?

[Rosemarie Hemmelgarn]

For a disabled person, it would be the most historic time in history to see Bill C-22 passed and have disabled persons removed from poverty. Even more historic would be the intention of Bill C-22 not getting lost in the future.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Hemmelgarn, for your presentation.

We go to Mr. Prince for five minutes.

[Michael J. Prince, Lansdowne Professor of Social Policy, Faculty of Human and Social Development, University of Victoria, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, and thank you for the opportunity to speak to the committee today. You have my submission. It's entitled “Improving Bill C-22 in a Prompt and Principled Manner”.

My remarks will focus on two topics: the preamble to the bill and the continuing role of this parliamentary committee as you move forward.

As it is, the preamble in the draft bill does several important things. It identifies the intended target population group, the working-age persons with disabilities. It remarks briefly on some of the barriers faced by people living with disabilities in this country. It outlines the relevant policy context of international, constitutional and federal legislative measures in place. It commits to the principle of “nothing without us”, the involvement of the disability community and individuals and families in the policy and program design process. It recognizes the essential role of provinces and territories in delivering and in managing the multitude of interactions between programs and families, and between federal programs and provincial and territorial programs.

As you know, Bill C-22 does not contain a section on guiding principles. However, there are some included in the preamble and in other parts of the bill. Nonetheless, certain important principles and values are either absent or unclear as contained in the current preamble. These uncertainties and lack of clarity include the intersectional nature of people's lives, the concept of a disability, the principle of the inherent dignity of all people, the concept of an adequate standard of living, and the question of whether “nothing without us” means that persons with disabilities must be involved in the making of regulations and in the evaluation of program delivery and results.

I would suggest, as is listed in my submission to you today, that the bill requires a limited number of modest changes to strengthen the bill to better reflect public values and the parliamentary intentions. These are listed in my submission. I'm happy to talk about them in the question and answer period. What I'd just like to say at this point is that most of these recommended additions and the textual changes are familiar. They already exist in the Accessible Canada Act, in the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, or in federal regulatory management policies at Treasury Board.

Recommendations like the ones I am suggesting enable you as parliamentarians to clarify and bolster the underlying values and principles of this much-needed legislative initiative. These recommendations also could be thought of as helping to set the table for this committee's ongoing role.

For decades, parliamentary committees in Canada provided an essential place for the dialogue and the advancement of the status of persons with disabilities and their families. I have been appearing before this committee since 1994. I'm glad to be here yet again, after a span of 10 governments, to continue to advance the rights and dignity of Canadians with disabilities.

I see three important roles for you going forward, Mr. Chair. One is to examine closely the implementation of “nothing without us” as a principle, as carried out by Employment and Social Development Canada and the department's actions, to make sure it both recognizes and proactively supports the ongoing engagement of the disability community during the regulatory process.

The second role is to consider the administration and the delivery mechanisms of the benefit to ensure that they are carried out in accordance with the principles that all persons have barrier-free access to the application processes of income programs, and that all persons must be treated with dignity regardless of their disabilities.

The third role I see for your committee going forward is to monitor the progress of this benefit's effects in relation to poverty reduction targets and the Poverty Reduction Act, to look at and to consider that we see a 50% reduction in the poverty rate among working-age persons with disabilities, as it was measured in 2015, so to have that cut in half by 2030. These are noble goals.

I would just like to add that in light of that, you may wish to look at clause 12 of Bill C-22, regarding the parliamentary review cycle. As it stands, the bill suggests a review after three years of the bill's being enacted and put into place, and then subsequent reviews every five years thereafter.

I would suggest, perhaps, cycling it more frequently so that you review the bill one or two years after it's been enacted and you continue to review it every three years rather than every five years. That will enable the Canadian disability community to be assured that this will not be put off for several years for review and consideration, that we will learn a lot in the implementation in the first two or three years, and that flexibility and learning will be there and possible. It will allow this committee to do its job of thoughtful scrutiny and upholding accountability for the delivery of this bill, so that it makes a difference in the lives of people across the country.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Prince.

Now we go to Ms. Carr for five minutes.

[Krista Carr, Executive Vice-President, Inclusion Canada]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and the rest of the committee, for the opportunity to appear before you today to speak about Bill C-22.

I'm joining you today from Victoria, B.C., the traditional territory of the Lekwungen, Songhees and Esquimalt peoples.

I'm very happy to be part of this critical discussion and the advancement of this foundational legislation to create Canada's first ever national disability benefit.

The organization I represent, Inclusion Canada, was founded over 60 years ago. We are a national federation of 13 provincial/territorial member associations, over 300 local associations and more than 40,000 members across the country supporting people with an intellectual disability and their families.

Financial security for individuals with intellectual disabilities and their families has been a priority issue for our organization for many years. The creation of a Canada disability benefit has been a long time coming, but we're happy we are here now.

We need to move quickly to pass this framework legislation, get the regulations developed and get this benefit into the hands of people with disabilities. The people we support every day and many others with disabilities simply cannot wait.

Bill C-22 is a historic opportunity to address the income security of people with disabilities in Canada. It is important to get it right. Past governments have prioritized the reduction of poverty for seniors and children, with old age security and the Canada child benefit. It is well overdue that our government prioritizes the reduction of poverty for working-age people with disabilities with the Canada disability benefit.

Canadians with disabilities and their families face staggering rates of poverty that are inexcusable in a country like Canada. In Canada 22% of people have a disability, with more than 40% of those living in poverty. When we pull back the layers on this data and specifically look at people with intellectual disabilities, the rates are far worse, in that 73% of working-age adults with an intellectual disability who live outside their family home live in poverty, as compared with 23% of those in the same age cohorts among the general population. This is truly unacceptable.

With inflation at its highest level in decades, people with disabilities are falling deeper and deeper into poverty. Unfortunately, in Canada poverty is the most likely outcome for someone with a disability. People are choosing between paying their rent and buying their food. They're taking risks with their health and safety. They're unable to access adequate health care and personal support. Pervasive ableism, discrimination and legislated poverty are very real issues that people with disabilities battle every day. They can't get ahead and they remain far below the poverty line.

There are gaping holes in Canada's social safety net. The Canada disability benefit will begin to close some of those gaps. Bill C-22 sends a clear message to people with disabilities that this country will no longer allow them to struggle to live a life with dignity. How we treat people with disabilities in our society reflects our values as a nation, and we have an opportunity to do better.

We know that Bill C-22 is framework legislation that will enshrine the benefit in law. I know that some have suggested that Bill C-22 should contain more details regarding the design of the benefit and that it should be amended. Furthermore, legislators might be tempted to make amendments to clarify more technical elements of the benefit.

Although I clearly understand the motivations behind this, we do not think it is the best course of action. Indeed, some of these elements are extremely technical, and it is likely that the discussion on these elements in committee would greatly slow down the adoption of Bill C-22.

With all due respect to the parliamentarians on this committee and beyond, in the spirit of “nothing without us”, we feel really strongly that it is persons with disabilities, their families and representative organizations who should be working arm in arm with government to design this benefit through the regulatory process.

Our view is that we have an opportunity before us now to get this foundational legislation enacted into law. Getting this bill passed as quickly as possible will allow government to start the formal process of negotiating with provinces and territories on how the benefit will interact with other provincial/territorial supports, which we know is a very complex system in this country.

My final plea to you as members of this committee is that if you truly want to make a historic impact on the lives of people with disabilities in this country, and I know you all do, you will do everything in your power to ensure that this bill passes as quickly as possible so that we can get on to the design work, the negotiations with the PTs, and get this benefit into the hands of people who desperately need it.

No one in Canada should have to live a life in poverty, especially as a result of having a disability. Let's please get this done.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Carr.

We'll now open the floor for questions, beginning with Mrs. Falk for six minutes.

Mrs. Falk, you have the floor.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank our witnesses for coming today.

Rosemarie, I particularly want to thank you for travelling as far as you have, which is from my neck of the woods. Thank you so much for that. I also want to thank you for the full-time lifetime advocacy that you have chosen to do on behalf of your daughters. I know it's not a small feat to cut through the red tape and the barriers that are placed at every level of government; it doesn't matter where. It's quite the trek to go through.

We know this legislation gives the government the authority to create a benefit for persons with disabilities, but in our opinion, it doesn't give particular assurances. There is no indication of who would be eligible, what the benefit amount would be, or how it would be determined. There is no implementation date or any other detail at all.

I'm just wondering what you, as an advocate and as a mother, think the eligibility parameters should be.

[Rosemarie Hemmelgarn]

I've been thinking about that. One of the thoughts that I came up with would be that if you were able to qualify for the Canada disability benefit, that would be one way of qualifying. There may be others, but I'm sure that members who would be in the regulation phase would have other ideas around other areas that might qualify. However, I think the Canada disability benefit would be a good start.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Okay. Thank you.

Ms. Carr, I am just wondering if your organization, Inclusion Canada, has been guaranteed to be at the table during the development of the regulations.