Human Resources Committee on Nov. 16th, 2022

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Committee members, the clerk has advised me that we have a quorum and that all the witnesses have been tested and cleared with their sound checks, so I will call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 44 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022, and therefore members are attending in person and remotely by using Zoom.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. For those participating virtually, please use the “raise hand” function before speaking, and please check to ensure you unmute yourself before you begin to speak. When you are done speaking, put your mike on mute again to minimize interference. For those in the room who wish to speak, the microphone is controlled by the verification officer. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order. We appreciate your patience.

You may speak in the official language of your choice. Interpretation services are available for the meeting. For those participating by video conference, you have the choice of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use an earpiece to select the desired channel. I would remind you again that the testing has been done with the witnesses, and the interpretation services are fine.

I would like to remind all participants that taking screenshots is not permitted.

Should any technical issues arise or we lose interpretation services, please advise me. We'll suspend while they're corrected.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, October 18, 2022, the committee will resume its study of Bill C-22, an act to reduce poverty and to support the financial security of persons with disabilities by establishing the Canada disability benefit and making a consequential amendment to the Income Tax Act.

I would like to take a moment to remind those participating in today's meeting, as well as those observing the proceedings in person and on video, that the committee adopted a motion on Monday, October 24, and instructed the clerk to explore options to allow for the participation of all witnesses and members of the public in the context of the consideration of Bill C-22, which included planning for inclusive and accessible meetings. The committee made arrangements for sign language interpretation in both American Sign Language and Quebec Sign Language for those witnesses appearing in person and by Zoom.

For those individuals in our audience, the sign language interpreters are being video-recorded to be incorporated into a video recording of the proceedings that will be made available at a later date on ParlVU, via the committee's website.

To assist interpreters in their work, I kindly ask all members and witnesses appearing today to introduce themselves when speaking, and to speak slowly.

Finally, if a member of the audience requires assistance, please notify me.

I would like to inform all members that the witnesses appearing, as I've stated, have completed the technical connectivity and equipment tests. I would like to remind those appearing virtually, including members of the committee, that if you do not have an approved parliamentary or House of Commons headset, I will not recognize you to speak.

I would like to welcome the following witnesses. From the Confédération des organismes de personnes handicapées du Québec, we have Paul Lupien, the chair; and André Prévost, executive director. From Spinal Cord Injury Canada, we have William Adair, executive director. From The Local Community Food Centre, we have Matthew Maynard, community connector; and Karen Wood.

We'll start with Mr. Lupien for five minutes, please.

Mr. Lupien, you have the floor.

[Paul Lupien, Chair, Confédération des organismes de personnes handicapées du Québec]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Paul Lupien, and I am chair of the Confédération des organismes de personnes handicapées du Québec. With me is our executive director, André Prévost. On behalf of the Confédération and all the organizations we represent, I'd like to thank you for giving us the opportunity to speak today and present our recommendations on Bill C‑22 to the committee.

The Confédération des organismes de personnes handicapées du Québec is a nonprofit organization founded in 1985 by and for people with functional limitations. It is an independent community action self-advocacy group whose mission is to make Quebec inclusive in order to ensure the full social participation of people with functional limitations and their families.

The Confédération is a francophone umbrella organization that brings together and supports more than 40 national and regional organizations of people with functional limitations and their families. These individuals may have motor, organic, intellectual, visual, auditory, or neurological functional limitations, or autism spectrum, speech and language learning or mental health disorders.

The Confédération is active on the Quebec, Canadian and international scenes in all areas that have an impact on the living conditions and social participation of people with functional limitations and their families. The Confédération is also the largest “multiple disabilities” group of francophone organizations dedicated to people with disabilities in Quebec.

Six major principles guide all action the Confédération takes: full inclusion, the rule of law, the right to equality, universal accessibility, accommodation and compensation for the additional costs associated with functional limitations. That last principle is highly pertinent to the Canada disability benefit. The Confédération believes that compensation measures must be put in place to meet the various needs of people with functional limitations. These measures aim to address the consequences and additional costs associated with disability situations, and compensation can come in different forms: goods, direct services, allowances, tax measures and others.

I will now turn the floor over to our executive director André Prévost, who will present the Confédération's recommendations for Bill C‑22.

[André Prévost, Executive Director, Confédération des organismes de personnes handicapées du Québec]

Thank you, Mr. Lupien and Mr. Chair.

The Confédération is of the opinion that passing Bill C‑22 without amendment before the holiday season would be a beautiful gift for many people with disabilities. Involving these individuals as equal partners in the process of co‑creating regulations, in the spirit of “for us, by us”, would certainly be a great way to go.

Therefore, payment of the benefit by fall 2023 strikes us as a realistic and necessary target for all political parties in the House of Commons to achieve. We recognize the discomfort legislators feel in voting on a framework bill that contains few details. Nonetheless, consultations with people with disabilities are still ongoing and they will provide insightful advice.

The Canada disability benefit must complement and enhance programs already in place in the provinces and territories. This will require significant alignment, because the benefit must not run counter to local programs. If that were to happen, the powerful negative impact would be felt by people with disabilities. Nonetheless, we're confident that good alignment is possible without any significant delays, given the many experiences and consultations currently under way and what's already available to date.

Particularly in Quebec's case, the experience of developing regulations in conjunction with the basic income program framework legislation has so far been a success. This provincial program, which the Canada disability benefit is intended to complement, represents a major step forward in the fight against poverty for people with disabilities in Quebec. If that's true, then it should also allow the program to address needs that are still unmet. Achieving that will require major efforts to intertwine the two initiatives, in our view.

We will have to find a way to index the Canada disability benefit with Quebec's one-time payment program to avoid having the income of people with disabilities indexed annually in Quebec at a certain rate, but quarterly at the federal level at other rates. Considering the costs, or additional costs, of disability, we obviously subscribe to full indexation based on the cost of health rather than the cost of living.

Finally, the individualized benefit combining the federal benefit and the Quebec program should completely and unequivocally lift people out of poverty. It should take into account the costs of disability and accessibility constraints, in terms of education, employment or transportation, among others. We believe that this combined individualized benefit should not take into account spousal income or employment income, which should provide clear income progressivity for eligible individuals.

It's important that I bring up the need to avoid the harmful effects of bureaucracy. If the federal government were to introduce the Canada disability benefit without consulting the provinces and territories, it would expose people with disabilities to the harmful effects of red tape.

In Quebec in particular, if the benefit comes into force regardless of what the provinces decide, it should not replace any existing financial assistance programs, such as the social assistance program, the social solidarity program or the basic income program. Recipients of last resort financial assistance in Quebec should not be exempted from the federal program until they have reached the low-income threshold, as measured by Statistics Canada. If they are allowed to reach or exceed the low-income threshold, it will be imperative to maintain provincial program measures such as the health care claim booklet, employability services and other compensation for people with disabilities.

If money is transferred to the province, it must go directly into the basic income program to benefit individuals, not other financial items. It will also have to be used to meet and follow the low-income threshold defined by Statistics Canada, and redistributed by Quebec under the basic income program with the same eligibility criteria as the federal government, that is, one cheque per person, regardless of spousal income.

Finally, should the Canada disability benefit be transferred to Quebec, the surplus not paid out to people with disabilities should be reinvested in other disability-related programs, be it home support, adapted transportation or home adaptation, among others. The surplus should also be earmarked for inclusion and poverty reduction.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Prévost.

We now have Mr. Adair for Spinal Cord Injury Canada for five minutes.

I would ask presenters to respect the five-minute timeline, please.

Mr. Adair, you have the floor.

[William Adair, Executive Director, Spinal Cord Injury Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am Bill Adair. I would like to acknowledge that I am presenting from Toronto. I am on the traditional territory of many nations, including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinabe, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee and the Wendat peoples. Toronto is now home to many diverse first nation, Inuit and Métis peoples. These are the traditional custodians of this land, and I pay my respects to their elders, past and present.

I am speaking to you today as the executive director of Spinal Cord Injury Canada. Our federation of organizations was founded in 1945 by World War II veterans. We support people from the onset of injury and throughout the rest of their lives. We help people adjust, adapt and thrive in communities across Canada.

Thank you for inviting me to address HUMA. My comments represent the opinion of Spinal Cord Injury Canada. Additionally, what I have to say has been influenced by my personal lived experience with disability, my 50-year career promoting the inclusion of people with disabilities and a shared position on Bill C-22 formed with nine other disability organizations.

I will begin by declaring the urgent need for the proposed Canada disability benefit. We first heard about the benefit in the 2020 throne speech. We're nearing the end of 2022. People with disabilities living in poverty have waited long enough. During the recent pandemic, it was evident that people with disabilities faced widespread social and economic deprivation. General costs soared. People had extra expenses for things like masks and gloves. Sometimes they even had to cover the cost of masks and gloves for their support workers who might have shown up without any. Food banks that once might have provided support were unsafe because of the lack of transportation to get there and because other people could be carrying COVID. If your immune system is weak, your risk is more significant.

Sadly, expenses and risks have not eased up for people with disabilities. Many people live in excruciating poverty without access to support, services and other necessities of life. Some people with disabilities have now chosen to access medical assistance in dying as the only answer to end their suffering, even when their end of life is not evident.

This reality is not my Canada. In this regard, I am not proud to say that I am a Canadian. After reflecting on what I just said, are you?

The Canada disability benefit must ensure a minimum standard of good living and lift people out of poverty. It must be a catalyst to help people find opportunities to participate in society.

We appreciate that Bill C-22 is a framework bill, leaving the government to determine many details through regulations. Without a doubt, we need a rapid approval of Bill C-22.

We request that you strengthen the bill with the following two principles. Number one, there must be a robust and meaningful engagement of people with disabilities when developing the regulations. Number two, the Government of Canada must accelerate the regulation development process so that payments to people with disabilities can begin within a year of passing the bill.

Once the bill has passed, Spinal Cord Injury Canada will be ready to, and expects to, work with the government on the regulations, but for now, please be quick with your decisions. Pass Bill C-22. People's lives are at stake.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Adair.

We'll now move to the Local Community Food Centre with either Matthew Maynard or Karen Wood.

[Karen Wood, The Local Community Food Centre]

My name is Karen Wood.

I would first like to thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak with you and for listening to me. I am a resident of Stratford, Ontario, and a recipient of the Ontario disability support program because of a spinal-related disability along with severe fibromyalgia.

I am not here to give you my hard-luck story. I'm not a professional lobbyist. I'm here to share my own experience with you so that you can make this potentially transformative bill the best it can possibly be and deliver it to folks like me who so desperately need it now.

Here with me is Matthew Maynard, who is an adviser and advocate at the Local Community Food Centre here in Stratford. The Local is part of a national network of 15 community food centres across the country, with two more on the way. In addition, we work with over 300 Good Food organizations to advocate for policy changes that will increase people's income so they can afford adequate, quality food accessible to all as a matter of human right.

When I heard about the Local, I came to help others who need it. I learned how to weave sleeping mats out of plastic milk bags and began making them for the growing number of Stratfordites who live unsheltered and are waiting for permanent housing. It's a small comfort, but I'm committed to doing whatever I can, because I believe strongly that, as neighbours, we need to stick together and take care of each other, especially during times as hard as these.

In that spirit, we stand united with local organizations like L'Arche, Community Living, and Facile Independent Living that support community members with disabilities in urging this committee to pass Bill C-22 with all possible haste and then co-create the Canada disability benefit along with the disability community as equal partners at the regulatory stage and have the resources allocated in the spring budget for distribution in the fall of 2023.

When fewer than half of the working folks in my county make a living wage, what hope do those of us who depend on shamefully inadequate social assistance have in accessing the basic necessities of life?

I recently saw the dietitian at the hospital. She spoke to me about following the recommended Canada food guide. She told me that a quarter of a cup of greens such as asparagus and broccoli were best. I told her to stop right there. As much as I'd like to, I could not afford to eat this way. It's not because I don't know how. I live below the poverty line, so how am I expected to follow Canada's food guide? There is very little choice in the matter for those of us who rely on food banks and community meal programs to get by.

When quality, nutritious food is out of reach, you can probably imagine that getting a haircut or sharing a cup of coffee with a friend at a neighbourhood café is a luxury that I can very rarely afford. In fact, sometimes even medical necessities and things that my doctor has recommended like a walker, a shower chair or safety bars around my tub and toilet come out of my already impossibly stretched budget. In July, for example, I broke my foot, and I had to purchase an Aircast boot. This was an extra $86 that I had to pay that caused me serious financial strain.

Even without these unexpected expenses, I struggle every month to make ends meet, and I battle with myself to determine what is more important. Do I buy what I need for my health and safety, buy a loaf of bread, or do a load of laundry? My day-to-day concern is on money, not my wellness. I live on $600 a month. Could you?

Something so simple should not be so hard. I do not remember when I bought a clothing article brand new, as I can only afford to shop at thrift stores. Why do I have to struggle and suffer so much because of my disabilities?

When we heard about the proposed Canada disability benefit, we reached out to our MP in Perth—Wellington, John Nater, to provide him with our thoughts, share our stories with him and, most importantly, show him that our community is fully behind the spirit of this potentially life-changing legislation. Many community members at this meeting expressed some doubt about getting involved in the political process after decades of being ignored, disregarded and let down by the system, but, following our meeting, there was a feeling of hope that our voices were heard.

Three days later, at our Monday night community dinner, we sat and watched a livestream of the House of Commons debate at which MP Nater described his meeting with us and voted along with his colleagues to move this bill to committee for debate. Our hope grew again.

We then held a rally of support at MP Nater's office on the day the bill unanimously passed at second reading. Again, our hope grew.

Please continue to seek out spaces like The Local in your communities and talk to those of us with lived experience. We are here—community members with disabilities—to help you, to advocate on our own behalf and to bring hope to everyone living with disabilities in Canada.

Too many of us have experienced the indignity of having to prove our disabilities to administrators of benefits after being denied several times. Too many of us have experienced how demoralizing it is to have one benefit clawed back when another is introduced, or to be penalized for even getting a part-time job.

We need this benefit to avoid those pitfalls. We need the Canada disability benefit to work in harmony with existing supports to lift every Canadian with a disability above the poverty line so that we can fully participate in the communities we live in to reach our full potential and to live in dignity.

Before the pandemic, one in eight Canadians and one in four Canadians with disabilities were food-insecure. It got significantly worse during the pandemic, and now there's also the rapidly rising cost of living, especially for those living at or below the poverty line because of their disabilities.

We have a real chance to end disability poverty. Please, let's not waste it. Ensure that this bill doesn't get bogged down in the committee stage and that it passes quickly; support calls for the government to co-create the Canada disability benefit with the disability community as equal partners at the regulatory stage; push for resources to be allocated in the spring budget for distribution in the fall of 2023; and ensure there are no clawbacks when the Canada disability benefit finally rolls out.

Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Wood.

We will now open the floor to questions.

Before I do, I will let you know that I've been advised that the sound quality from Mr. Lupien is not adequate to do translation, so please direct your questions to André Prévost if you have any for their particular organization.

We'll begin with Mrs. Gray for six minutes, please.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today. We really appreciate it.

I'd like to start my line of questioning with Karen Wood.

Thank you very much for your testimony here today. You have touched on some very personal ways that inflation and food costs can affect people with disabilities, specifically around the Canada food guide and being able to eat healthy food and being able to afford some of these basic necessities.

I'm wondering if you can explain to us how important it is to get this right with this piece of legislation, specifically around what the amounts might be and when people might be eligible. We've also heard concerns from some people about clawbacks and how there might be unintended consequences. I'm wondering if you can speak to what your thoughts and concerns are around that.

[Karen Wood]

First of all, I cannot put a figure amount on it.

When I spoke with the dietician.... I cannot eat that way. She asked why I couldn't. I told her that I was on disability. She said that she felt sorry for me because I could not afford to eat properly. Then we carried on. She suggested that maybe I request greens and high-fibre foods at the food bank, which you can't always do because they only give you what they have.

I am basically in a situation where I'm not comfortable eating all these starchy foods—pastas and stuff—because that's all I can afford.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

As we moved forward, we heard testimony from officials and the minister about a timeline for this. They've acknowledged it likely taking a year to do regulations, and then implementation more than likely sometime into 2024. What are your thoughts from a timeline perspective that this is the actual timeline the government is working on?

[Karen Wood]

I feel it's too long. We need help and support now, not in 2024.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Another thing we've heard is about one of the pieces in this legislation that refers to working age, although there is no real definition of what that is.

I wanted to get your thoughts on this legislation being for working age. When someone is not of working age—whatever that age might be—are there concerns about people not being eligible or all of sudden being in a situation where the overall amount they're receiving is diminished by a lot?

I'm wondering if you could comment on that.

[Karen Wood]

Well, that means we're no longer disabled after the working age and we go on old age pension. That's not right because we're still disabled when we reach old age.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you for that.

Another thing we've heard is regarding consultations. We know that this legislation was put forth in the last Parliament and then it died when the snap election happened, so here we are again without any amendments. It's about having consultations to gain input into this, so we have a piece of legislation that doesn't have a lot of details.

Are you aware of any consultations that have happened in order to make this bill as good as it can be?

[Karen Wood]

We've talked locally within our own community. Out there, no, I'm not aware of any.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to turn to Mr. Prévost. I have just a quick question. I only have a few moments left here.

Have you heard if any consultations are happening between the Quebec government and the federal government on this legislation?

[André Prévost]

I know that it's been discussed with various groups, but I don't have any more details. You would have to ask the Quebec government directly.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Okay.

I have one other thing. I actually just have a few more seconds here.

You mentioned a timeline that you thought would be sometime around the fall of 2023. Where did you hear that? The information that we have from the minister and officials was that it would likely be into 2024 because it would take a year for regulations.

I was just wondering where you might have heard that or if that was sort of a wish on your part.

[André Prévost]

That's probably a realistic wish. In Quebec, the regulations for the basic income program have been developed and adopted, and the first cheques will be mailed out as early as January 2023.

As long as everything is ready in Quebec, I see no reason why we couldn't harmonize the Canada disability benefit and basic income program as early as fall 2023. The parameters should remain the same, with a few details, but the whole issue of indexation still needs to be worked out.

Of course, we're going to reach for the top, which is to go above the low-income threshold, so that people with disabilities have a decent income. The criterion is simple, it's the issue of additional costs for people with disabilities. I see no trouble in that respect. We don't understand how this could go beyond fall 2023.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mrs. Gray.

Now we go to Mr. Long for six minutes, please.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

Good afternoon to my colleagues.

Thank you very much to our witnesses for their testimony today. It's very important.

I don't think I've seen a thing that we've brought before HUMA—and I've been on HUMA for many years—that's as important and as transformational as this. When I look around the horseshoe here, among the Conservatives, the NDP, the Bloc and us, we all agree on the importance of this bill.

Very much like the Canada child benefit, the old age benefit and the GIS, it's transformational legislation. We want to make sure that we get this right. That's why it's so important that we hear your testimony and that we don't rush it. We recognize the importance of expediting it, but we want to make sure we get this right.

One thing I want to ask all three of you, first and foremost, is about the relationships and how you see this integrating with the provinces. There are a range of supports right now that persons with disabilities access through provinces and territories, whether it's a pharmacare program, a home care program or an employment support program.

I'm going to start with you, Mr. Adair. I'm looking for your thoughts as to how we ensure that we intertwine and we work with the provinces to make sure that there's a net benefit for persons with disabilities.

Thank you.

[William Adair]

Thank you for the question. Through the chair, I'm happy to respond to that.

I think the first consideration is the importance of realizing that there are different poverty levels in different areas of our country. A carton of eggs is priced quite a bit differently in Nunavut than it is in Ontario, at least in southern Ontario and Toronto. This is a very important consideration to get it right.

The second consideration is to ensure that there are conversations that take place between the provinces, territories and the Government of Canada to make sure that as we build the regulations and as we determine the level of funding, there are agreements with the provinces and territories that they will not claw it back. Karen talked to us about the situation where there may be a new benefit coming along, but then there's a decrease in another benefit, so there's no real gain. That's not what we're looking for here.

You were just saying it's really important that we get it right. One reason that the position of Spinal Cord Injury Canada is to pass the bill now is that we can work these details out in regulations. We, as a member of the disability community, and the entire disability community are ready to put our shoulder to this wheel, to do it quickly and effectively, and to get it right.

Look at what we did with CERB during COVID. It did not take long. If there's the will of the government to address this with the disability community in a co-creation process, as Karen explained, we're off to the races, and our country will change for the better.

Once people with disabilities are no longer struggling to survive, they can be part of our communities. They'll start working. Some of them will start working, working more, paying taxes and having a purpose in life.

This is foundational legislation.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you for that, Mr. Adair. I'm going to try to come back to you.

Ms. Wood or Mr. Prévost, do you have anything to add about how we make sure that we negotiate with provinces or intertwine this benefit to make sure that there's a net gain?

Go ahead, Mr. Prévost.

[André Prévost]

We're talking about a “dispenser”-type public policy. At some point, transfers will undoubtedly be made to the provinces and territories.

Of course, each province and territory has its own realities. For Quebec, because of the basic income program, we should reach the low-income threshold as early as January 2023. However, due to the inflation we're currently experiencing, the threshold will have to be raised gradually.

Our concern is that the provinces will allocate the transfers to initiatives other than those supporting people with disabilities. From that perspective, we say we can go further and achieve full and complete indexation. If we can do that, we should be able to address unmet needs, particularly when it comes to transportation, additional health and social services costs and home adaptation, long before the money is allocated to other initiatives. Even with respect to employment incentives, many unmet needs should be considered before we even think about allocating those funds to other initiatives.

This isn't the first time Canada has set up a new program. The provinces and territories have similar programs. There are precedents. However, in some cases, funds have actually been allocated to other initiatives. That's what we hope to avoid with the Canada disability benefit.