Human Resources Committee on March 7th, 2023

[Michelle Lattimore]

Thank you.

As you mentioned, it is in paragraph 6(b) in the legislation that we speak to the importance of having flexibility in early learning and child care programs and services so that they respond to the varying needs of children and families. Of course, there are greater details on all of this in the bilateral agreements. Each province and territory has its own regulations and policies for things like hours of care, length of care during the day, weekend care and pieces like that.

To give you an example, the Alberta agreement indicates than an additional grant for those operating flexible and overnight child care would be provided with such a grant. Other agreements with provinces and territories recognize this really important component and have committed to other measures.

Bill C-35 was drafted, again, to fully respect provincial and territorial jurisdiction. Regulation of hours of care is a matter of provincial and territorial jurisdiction.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

I'll try to use my time wisely.

My colleague Ms. Ferreri was asking about spaces earlier. Just so we're all clear, which order of government is directly accountable for creating new child care spaces?

[Michelle Lattimore]

The provinces and the territories are responsible for the creation of child care spaces.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I have no more questions, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Saks.

Ms. Bérubé, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Bill C‑35 does not include a definition of child care.

I'd like to know if the bill would apply to before‑ and after-school programs and part-time programs.

What other types of child care services does the bill cover?

[Michelle Lattimore]

Thank you.

Child care is defined in the legislation. There is legal language in there that speaks to....

Kelly, you might have to help me. That's where we use the word “tutor”. It's jurisprudence language. Would you mind jumping in?

[Kelly Nares, Director, Federal Secretariat on Early Learning and Child Care, Department of Employment and Social Development]

The legislation speaks to parents, caregivers and tutors, which encompasses the generally understood “parents and guardians”.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

The bill does not mention the age of children targeted by the Canada-wide early learning and child care system.

Why were the age categories of children to whom the bill will apply not specified?

[Michelle Lattimore]

Thank you for the question. It's an important one that speaks to the longevity that is intended by this bill.

As you may be aware, the Canada-wide early learning and child care system right now is intended for and focused on children from the ages of zero to six across Canada. There are other commitments in this space with respect to before-school and after-school care.

By not putting specificity around that, the legislation provides flexibility in the long term for the government to expand its focus to children over the age of six, if necessary. Instead of locking us in long term, it really provides the flexibility for the Canada-wide system to grow over time.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Is there a reason why the federal government has until now focused its work on children who are not yet of school age?

[Michelle Lattimore]

The simple answer to that question may be that we have to start somewhere. We're starting with children who we know are at a vulnerable age in terms of the incredible impact of investment in their care at this time.

We're starting from the beginning, but at the same time I will say that we're working with provinces and territories to look for opportunities to expand investments in before-school and after-school care, which may go beyond the age of six. Provinces and territories, having jurisdiction in this area, of course always have the flexibility to make those investments themselves.

The choice of the federal government was to start at this young age when, as we know, the benefits are so important for these children.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Bérubé.

Madame Zarrillo, you have two and a half minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I'm going to go back to the decent work and working conditions.

As was previously mentioned, 95% of the workforce are women. I'm always conscious of the discrimination that women face—especially immigrant women—every day in the workforce. I just want to go back to paragraph 7(1)(d) with regard to this idea of the workforce.

Ms. Lattimore, maybe you could share some of the discussions that happened around the language of “qualified and well-supported early childhood education workforce”. Why wasn't it stronger or more explicit in mentioning fair wages and working conditions?

We know that marginalized groups need this protection. I want to get an understanding of why the language is may be a little less explicit than it could be.

[Michelle Lattimore]

Thanks. I appreciate that question.

Again, I think it's really a reflection of the limitations we have in federal jurisdiction. In paragraph 7(1)(d) and its focus on quality, we are looking, on the one hand, to reflect the vital importance of the ECE workforce in contributing to that quality care without, on the other hand, stepping on provincial and territorial jurisdiction, which is what we would be doing if we attempted to be more prescriptive with respect to specific wages.

Where we can get into a little bit more specificity is in the bilateral agreements. That's where we see, with provinces and territories, commitments to the development of things like wage grids, wage floors and real investments that, as I mentioned earlier, we believe we will see improving over time.

The focus really in the first few years of the bilateral agreements has been on access and affordability. I think we will see space created for greater investments on the workforce in the coming year. Certainly the work that we're doing now with the federal-provincial-territorial forum of ministers most responsible for early learning and child care, as well as with the national advisory council, is to really dig in on the challenges in the workforce space.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

You mentioned that we're hoping that these things happen. We really do need to keep an eye on it. I'm going to want to know about reporting.

I just want to mention something here. Childcare Resource and Research Unit is a non-profit that conducts research for the child care market in Canada. They were saying that child care workers are making between $16 and just under $19 an hour, and that the federal government did leave out of this agreement setting minimum wages. This advocate group and advocates are saying that child care wages have to hit $30 an hour to meet demand for the service and that the wages aren't coming up fast enough.

If it's being monitored, could you let us know how it's being monitored? I know that there is reporting and that they're talking about reporting, but how can we ensure that exploitation does not continue in this sector as it grows?

[Michelle Lattimore]

I think the numbers associated with wages are of concern to everyone who is working and building policy in this space. Part of our role, both multilaterally and bilaterally, is to stay on top of those wages and to work openly with organizations like the CRRU and other advocates that are doing this important research.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madam Zarrillo.

Ms. Gray, you have five minutes.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Great. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all of you for being here.

With regard to the government's decision to put a focus on funding public and not-for-profit child care spaces, did this recommendation come from the department, or was this direction from the minister?

[Michelle Lattimore]

Budget 2021, I believe, spoke to a focus on not-for-profit child care. That's been reflected in the bilateral agreements with the provinces and territories.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Are you saying, then, that the direction came from the minister?

[Michelle Lattimore]

I personally have not been privy to where that direction would have come from.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Your department is the one working on this child care legislation. If that direction didn't come from your department, which is working on this legislation for child care, who would it have come from, then, if it didn't come from the minister?

[Michelle Lattimore]

The not-for-profit focus that is in the federal legislation aligns with the not-for-profit focus that is in the bilateral agreements. That's the reason that it's there right now. The intention with the legislation is to ensure consistency with the bilateral agreements.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Okay. Therefore, it didn't come from work that your department had done and recommended to the minister. It came from the other way, and then you worked on this legislation.

What research and considerations were provided by the minister to your department to make this the focus? Can you table that for this committee?