Minister, you said today in your testimony that “you can't have every...voice represented” at the table. However, you do not have one single voice on the national council that represents home-based child care. I want to read you a letter that was sent to me and to you, and I want to know what you want to say on the record about it—

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Madam Ferreri, your time has gone by.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

Thank you.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

I'll give a short time to the minister to respond, if there was something there. Then we'll conclude with Mr. Collins.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think it's really important, because what Ms. Ferreri was saying was actually inaccurate. I'd be happy to table this with the committee so that everyone is clear. Of course unlicensed child care is not included, for clear reasons. However, licensed home care is part of the not-for-profit umbrella, and they are included in this. That has always been the case.

I think it's really important that we're speaking from a factual basis.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Ms. Ferreri.

We will conclude with Mr. Collins for five minutes.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Chad Collins Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I want to commend you, Minister, much like my colleagues have past and present, in terms of the Herculean task you had in getting these agreements signed across the country. As someone who has been in politics a long time, I know it's not often that we see different parties of all stripes support legislation unanimously. You have that across the country. We don't have that here. We know the opposition's feelings on this.

I agree with Ms. Ferreri with some of the comments when she talked about the principles and how good this legislation is, which I know she voted against, but I think it's—

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I did not vote against this bill.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Chad Collins Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I'm sorry. I apologize if I mistook that.

I would say that when we see parties come together from across the country, we know that we've done something right. We see that, I think, with the Canada disability benefit as well. This committee had the opportunity to talk to Canadians and work with the minister in terms of historic legislation. I would put this in that category as well.

There is some fear from this sector, though, that at some point in time in the future a government will rip up these agreements. That's coming from service providers. That's coming from those people today who are receiving the service and the reduced fees and all the benefits that come with it.

Can you give some assurance to the committee and to those watching with regard to how this legislation is protected on a go-forward basis? We've seen political theatre in the past. We went through that in the last election—i.e., if these agreements are signed, they're going to be ripped up. I guess I would look to you for some assurance in terms of how we assure Canadians that this program is here for the long haul.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON

Well, the best assurance is not to elect a Conservative government. We saw Stephen Harper rip up the child care agreements in 2006, and Mr. Poilievre has called this a “slush fund” for parents. That's probably the most secure way.

What I think is important about this legislation is that it's trying to safeguard as much as possible from a future—likely Conservative—government that doesn't necessarily believe in child care. However, I also believe that once this is established, it's hard to take it away, right? Provinces and territories are going to rely on support from the federal government. That was part of the agreements we signed, knowing that we would be bringing forward this legislation. I think any future government would then have to justify it to Canadians. They would have to change the law. They would have to tell Canadian families that their child care fees are going up because they don't believe in supporting them.

I think this is one additional safeguard that Canadian families, child care providers and provinces and territories have to ensure that the federal government is there for the long haul.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Chad Collins Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you for that.

Is there a review process in terms of ensuring that this is a fluid process? Will there will be check-in points? Will there be opportunities for provincial and future federal governments to look at how these agreements are working? Can you elaborate on that process in terms tweaking things if they need to be tweaked? Is there a process to ensure that happens?

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON

The legislation is there for the long term. It commits the federal government to the long term. It outlines the principles, the guiding factors and the spirit of what these child care agreements are.

Then there's the complementary multilateral framework that sets out the agreements on a five-year basis. I think one of the reasons it's important to do it on a five-year basis is that we're building something new. We have not done this before in Canada. This is a new partnership with provinces and territories, and we need to be able to have an ongoing dialogue with PTs and an ongoing dialogue with indigenous partners to make sure we get this right.

That's something I think is really exciting. We feel the excitement across the country. It's making a difference in people's lives every day.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Go ahead on a point of order.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

Thank you.

I want to correct the record, because I think there was some confusion. I just want to say on the record to the minister that she was correct. I think there was some overlap, and I want to say I didn't mean to include unlicensed day cares. I was asking for an amendment, and I think there was some back-and-forth.

I just want to correct the record. She is correct, but what I was asking was for the amendment to add all small female licensed day cares. I never meant to include unlicensed ones. That wasn't what I was trying to say, but if we would be open to amending it so that small licensed female private operators—

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Madam Ferreri.

That is more debate, but we will allow you to clear the record.

Mr. Collins, you have about 20 seconds. Have you concluded?

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Chad Collins Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Well, 20 seconds isn't a long time.

I just want to say thank you again, Minister. You have done tremendous work on this file. We appreciate it. I think politicians and elected representatives of all political stripes across this country appreciate it, and you have done tremendous work.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Mr. Collins.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing and for a lively discussion back and forth at times. Thank you to the witnesses who appeared with you.

We conclude the first hour. We will suspend for a few minutes while the next witnesses are admitted to the committee meeting.

Thank you again, Minister and staff.

We will suspend for three minutes.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Welcome back.

The committee will resume its study of Bill C-35, an act respecting early learning and child care in Canada.

To assist the interpreters in their work, I kindly remind all members and witnesses appearing today to introduce themselves when speaking, and to speak slowly. You may use the official language of your choice. If there is an interruption in interpretation services, please get my attention. We'll suspend while it is being corrected.

Please direct your questions and responses through me, the chair, and wait until I recognize you.

We will begin this last hour with three witnesses: Monsieur Pierre Fortin, emeritus professor of economics; Krystal Churcher, chair of the Association of Alberta Childcare Entrepreneurs; and Dr. Sophie Mathieu, senior program specialist at the Vanier Institute of the Family.

We will begin with Mr. Fortin

Mr. Fortin, the floor is yours for five minutes.

9:55 a.m.

Pierre Fortin Emeritus Professor of Economics, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

“Emeritus professor” just means that I'm old, so don't worry about the title.

I'm very enchanted and most honoured to have this invitation from you.

I will begin in French, but then switch to English.

My presentation will focus on Quebec's experience in the last 25 years.

At a time when the entire country has embarked on a process of rapid development of child care services, it is important to understand the successes and difficulties Quebec has experienced since 1997, so that everyone's judgment over the coming years will be informed.

Quebec’s Educational Childcare Act of 1996 set two explicit objectives. One was to help families improve their work-life balance. The second was to enhance child development with a strong emphasis on equality of opportunity.

After 25 years, there are two broad outcomes. First, work-life balance has made huge progress. Second, child development and equality of opportunity have been enhanced, but are still very much a work in progress.

Quebec parents initially had access to child care spaces at a low universal daily fee of $5, which has been adjusted upward to, currently, $8.85. Since 2009, a private full-fee, for-profit sector has been allowed to develop competitively with the low-fee, non-profit sector by giving parents access to a generous provincial refundable tax credit on child care expenses.

I would emphasize eight takeaways from this 25-year experiment.

First, child care utilization has expanded in the province to around 300,000 spaces, which is up from 79,000 in 1997. The child care system has remained hugely popular ever since 1997, at over 90%.

Second, system costs have been under control. The total cost in 2022 is some $3.1 billion, which is somewhat less than the current OECD median of 0.6% of GDP.

Third, the labour force participation of Quebec women has risen to the highest level worldwide. It's on par with Sweden. In 2022, 88% of Quebec women aged 25 to 54 were in the labour force, compared to 84% in other provinces and 76% in the United States.

Fourth, women’s economic security and lifetime wages have increased significantly. The male-female hourly wage gap in Quebec has been cut by half in the last 20 years, going down from 17% to 9%. Women can now pursue continuous careers instead of staggered careers that are caught in a string of job separations, promotion delays and wage stagnation after every new birth.

Fifth, our best estimate is that Quebec’s GDP is likely 1.5%—or currently $8 billion—higher than it would be without the child care system.

Sixth, the larger labour force and broad economic activity allow the child care program to more than pay for itself. It has not required any increase in taxes. The fiscal surpluses can be reinvested to expand public services or to reduce taxes. There's a choice.

Seventh, the unanimous findings of the psycho-medical literature are that the quality of child care and its favourable impact on child development are highest in the low-fee, non-profit early childhood centres—the centres de la petite enfance, or CPE,—and lowest in the private full-fee, for-profit centres.

There is no way to escape the conclusion that private markets for child care have, unfortunately, been a quality failure. I'm saying “unfortunately” because I have defended private market solutions throughout my career, but a fact is a fact. It therefore appears very clear to most—including many private for-profit providers—that the way for the province to go about this from now on is to raise quality levels, by all means and everywhere, up to CPE standards.

Last but not least, access for disadvantaged children to good-quality care is lagging and should be a top priority for policy.

In conclusion, the Quebec system has not been following a Robin Hood-type targeted approach but the Scandinavian tradition of universality. The new federal transfers to provinces for child care are also conditioned on generalizing the Scandinavian approach to all of Canada. The Quebec evidence compellingly suggests that this is the way to go.

There are three main lessons to be drawn.

One, the economic well-being of women has been greatly enhanced.

Two, there has been no need to increase taxes.

Three, the obvious challenges now are these. One is getting rid of the remaining shortages of spaces. Two is increasing quality everywhere up to CPE standards. Three is attracting more disadvantaged children into the high-quality sector.

Thank you very much.

10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Monsieur Fortin.

We'll go to Madame Churcher for five minutes, please.