Evidence of meeting #59 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was quality.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
I have just one question for Madam Bruske.
We've heard these comments. Would you agree with me that the expansion of for-profit child care hurts workers, yes or no, and why?
4:35 p.m.
President, Canadian Labour Congress
For-profit absolutely hurts workers because the reality is that you can only get profit by either increasing fees or lowering wages. Having a public, not-for-profit system is the best in terms of providing the quality of care that our children need and in terms of recruiting and retaining the very workers you need to rely on to actually provide that care.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
What are some ways you think the bill can be strengthened, Madam Ballantyne, to more effectively ensure a long-term, stable and effective national child care strategy, based on your former comments?
4:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Child Care Now
We've set out some very specific recommendations in our written submission. I can't do it in 10 seconds.
Essentially, we want to strengthen the guiding principles that would guide federal investments because that's what this bill is about. We want to make sure, for example, that federal funds explicitly go to addressing the workforce crisis, the retention crisis, the recruitment crisis. We also want to strengthen the accountability mechanisms in the bill, and those in the bill revolve around reports from the minister to Parliament. We think Parliament—and we say both Houses of Parliament—needs to continue to be engaged in this issue to ensure that the purpose, the declarations and the guiding principles are actually enforced.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
Thank you very much, Chair.
I want to thank our witnesses for their contributions today. As a mother of four young children where child care is an issue, I have lived it and not been able to access it. It is very frustrating, because I'm just one drop in the bucket of the parents who can't access it.
I believe that all parents should have access to affordable child care, but also high-quality care. That matters as well. We have to recognize that there is limited access right now. I believe this bill is picking winners and losers, and it is going to hinder access even more.
I come from a rural community. I represent communities that don't have public child care and don't have not-for-profit care. What happens in those situations when they don't have access to funding to expand? Some of these small communities are growing, because it's more affordable to live in a smaller community as opposed to an urban area. What happens to those children and to those parents if they already have limited access, but maybe their child care provider in that community, or a community farther over, doesn't fall under what the government of the day thinks is important?
Ms. Ballantyne, with regard to access in communities like the ones I've listed that don't have public or not-for-profit care, is it your suggestion that if there is a private day care it should be excluded?
4:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Child Care Now
No, our position is that if there's an existing for-profit provider, that provider should receive federal support for the best-quality program possible. We also think that wherever you live in Canada, you should have access to high- quality care. The evidence tells us that that means a not-for-profit or a public provider. In fact, it's interesting, on this issue about rural access, that there are small communities in Alberta where the only reason families have access is that the municipality has stepped up to provide public child care of really high quality.
We need to see a lot more than that. If we need incentives, they are incentives to get public employers, municipalities, and other public entities and the not-for-profit sector to help them make sure that every community is served with the highest-quality care.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
Do you believe that the parent is the best person to decide what type of care their child receives when they are working or unavailable?
4:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Child Care Now
I absolutely think that parents need choice, and the best way to give parents choice is to increase the supply of high-quality early learning and chid care.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
We have heard a lot about the labour shortage. I've spoken to lots of teachers as well who are finding it difficult, even in classrooms, just with anxiety and depression. A lot of our youth are struggling with mental health and behaviour issues, and that type of thing. Is any of that discussed in this research that is being referenced? Are any of those types of issues that these child care providers are facing reasons they may be leaving the profession?
4:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Child Care Now
The evidence suggests that it's really about working conditions. I would say a lot of what you're talking about speaks to working conditions and learning conditions. It's a very difficult sector to really do your best and to have personal safety and mental wellness, for sure. The only way to address that is to actually increase public funding and to make sure that the workforce is supported in every way, not just in wages, not just in compensation but also in ensuring good-quality working conditions.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
I just have one quick thing, Chair.
Can you please table for the committee this research and data you keep referring to?
4:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Child Care Now
Absolutely. There are volumes of it, but I will.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Mrs. Falk.
I will remind members to please identify who you want answering a question, when you're questioning.
Mr. Coteau, you have the floor for five minutes.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON
Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
I'm going to give two minutes of my time to Mr. Van Bynen. I know he has a question, so I'll take the first section, then pass it over.
It sounds to me, from what we've heard—not only from the witnesses today but also throughout this entire process—that the public system pays better, the outcomes are better and it ensures more diversity and equity. It also increases access. There are lower fees, so it's more affordable for parents.
Perhaps, Ms. Ballantyne, you could go over those key indicators for outcomes and success—the four or five I mentioned—and confirm that information for the committee.
4:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Child Care Now
First of all, we're talking about both public and not-for-profit systems being better.
A public system of early learning and child care.... A public provider is a government. In most countries with fully developed early child care systems, local government plays a key part—either municipalities or what we know in Canada as school boards. One of the reasons why they pay higher wages is because they have a more secure base of funding. Public employers have that.
The same is true for not-for-profit, but the main difference between not-for-profit and for-profit is that we have to look at the budget and see where the money is being spent. As I said earlier, in a for-profit business, what you're looking at is the bottom line. It's paying your bills and also ensuring you end up with a profit. That's why you're in business.
Not-for-profits don't have that concern. As a result, they tend to spend their money on delivery of service and high quality. That includes ensuring better wages. They also want to make sure, as part of their not-for-profit mission—and this is also true for public employers—that they're accessible, so they try to keep their fees down.
The problem is that neither the for-profit nor not-for-profit sector can keep fees down if public funding is not sufficient. That's why we also call for more public funding.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON
It sounds as if, when you put the right type of infrastructure in place—stability and predictability, with the right type of funding—the issues the Conservatives brought up about accessibility can be tackled. If the system is funded properly, it creates more opportunity for growth. If it's stable, it creates better recruitment and retention, which addresses labour gaps that may exist. When there's co-operation among the different players, including government and program deliverers, and if that equation works well, it allows for expansion and addresses some of the concerns the Conservatives brought up.
I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Van Bynen at this point, Mr. Chair.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Tony Van Bynen Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Knowing that, I will ask one quick question of Ms. Bruske.
Quite simply, I will ask you to submit what you mean by putting more “teeth” into the legislation. Could you provide us with a written commentary?
I want to go back to Ms. Gosselin.
I want to talk about the issue of quality. You mentioned there are quality assessments. I would like to know about process, criteria and evaluation for these quality assessments, how often they're done and whether there are incentives for compliance, or consequences for not meeting the quality standards.
If you don't have enough time to do that, can you submit a brief?
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
4:45 p.m.
Chair, Board of Directors, Association québécoise des centres de la petite enfance
In Quebec, external evaluators conduct quality inspections before license renewal, which occurs every five years for subsidized child care centres. Inspections are done on site. If the centre fails inspection or has areas for improvement, a support plan is proposed to ensure that those areas are improved and identify ways to do that. Failure to comply with the support plan and improve the areas identified will result in the centre's license not being renewed.