Human Resources Committee on March 21st, 2023

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To all the witnesses, thank you for taking part in this meeting. It's important, because we're talking about the future of our young children.

Bill C‑35 neither defines what child care is, nor does it give any indication of the age range in which children will be covered by the Canada-wide early learning and child care system. In your view, is that a problem and can you speak to the impact that will have?

[Martha Friendly]

If you're asking me whether I think treating it as an asymmetrical agreement is a problem and will create a problem in the program in the future, I've always supported an asymmetrical approach in Canadian federalism. I think it's critical to the success of this program that Quebec be treated differently. Quebec did pioneer a child care system that some elements of the proposed CWELCC are based upon.

Obviously, and I think people do realize it, Quebec itself has a way to go, but given the structure of Canadian federalism, which is a given, I think this is the only way to move forward. I really support it. I don't think it will harm the program in the future.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Ms. Farris, what do you think?

[Maureen Farris]

I apologize. I didn't hear the beginning of the question. My interpretation function wasn't on properly. Is it possible to have the question restated, please?

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Okay. Bill C‑35 neither defines what child care is, nor does it gives any indication of the age range in which children will be covered by the Canada-wide early learning and child care system. In your view, is that a problem and can you speak to the impact that will have?

[Maureen Farris]

Regarding the age in the CWELCC program, they're aiming specifically for children of ages zero to six. Any child over the age of six is not eligible for any kind of fee reduction. Obviously, we still provide care for those children, but they're not eligible for the fee reduction.

As I mentioned earlier, it results in a big inequity for those families who have school-aged children versus children who are in some of our younger full-day programs. There are even children who are in the same program where one child is in junior kindergarten and therefore under the age of six and thus eligible for fee reductions, and the family is paying more for the exact same care for their school-aged child.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Hannen, would you like to add something?

[Andrea Hannen]

I don't disagree at all with what the previous panellist said. I think that is correct.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

All right.

Ms. Friendly, are there any other key items that should be added to Bill C‑35? Do you have any concerns about the bill?

[Martha Friendly]

Are there any missing parts? I think there are things that could be further elaborated. The parts are there. I agree that the workforce is only mentioned; it really needs to be strengthened and elaborated on. I also think something that's missing is any kind of recognition of the idea of inequity. There's nothing to really ensure that low-income families, vulnerable families or families who are not in the child care picture as much now, will really have any opportunity to become part of it. I'd like to see that discussed a little more.

Some of the definitions and the principles could be strengthened. I don't see things that are missing, but I see a number of places that are quite important that could be elaborated on.

As for expansion, I'm not sure how to do this in a bill, though I thought about it. I would see much more of it...which is why I said there's an obligation on the part of the federal government to ensure that child care is available. That is something other countries have done, which has been quite effective, when you have the correct structure, in motivating expansion and structuring expansion in a public and planned way.

Those are things I see in there that are only touched on, but could be elaborated on.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

What do you think, Ms. Hannen?

[Andrea Hannen]

Are there missing components to the bill? What I would be somewhat concerned about is that we have to be a little careful about inequities, in that there are very lengthy waiting lists. Right now, people who have a space, keep that space. However, we can't create spaces fast enough to serve all of the other folks, particularly the families who really need child care in order to put a roof over their heads.

System expansion, if we can't do it quicky enough, certainly leads to a level of inequity. I hate to hear reports already from operators that some quite well-off families are using the less expensive spaces almost as drop-in care, because the spaces have become less expensive under the universality element of this program. Really, they are using it as drop-in care and they don't actually need the spaces, yet there are other families who desperately need the spaces in order to go to work and support their children. There is some inequity, and I'm not sure how to solve that in the bill.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Bérubé.

Ms. Gazan, you have six minutes, and that will conclude this round.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Madam Farris, in your jointly submitted brief, you described the wage floor of $18 an hour set by the Ontario government as an insult to early childhood educators. As a former EC provider, I agree with this wholeheartedly. It's totally unacceptable and disrespectful.

What is the human impact of these inadequate wages and the lack of benefits on workers, on the children they're educating and on your ability to deliver child care programming?

[Maureen Farris]

It's very disheartening for the staff. Honestly, when that wage floor was announced, it was like a punch in the gut to our staff. Not only is the wage floor really low, but there also is a cap or a ceiling of a maximum of $25 per hours—$23 if you take out the wage enhancement. Again, our staff doesn't have any room for growth within their careers. They're going to hit that ceiling really quickly. Then there is also a lack of benefits in some organizations. There are no pensions.

I feel that a national minimum wage for early childhood educators would be a really valuable component to Bill C-35.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Would you agree with the statement that unless the deal provides workers with livable wages and benefits, we're going to continue to have waiting lists and a crisis in developing a national child care strategy?

[Maureen Farris]

Absolutely.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you.

I have another question for you.

Your brief says that you are “concerned that many larger corporations are now viewing child care as a profit-driven pursuit”, and that this is “not the system that we imagine for our community.”

How would an expansion of private corporate child care at the expense of not-for-profit providers like yours harm families?

[Maureen Farris]

In our small community we have two amazing for-profit centres. I just want to give them a shout-out because they are incredible and they really are concerned about quality child care.

However, in our small community, a big box style for-profit centre would definitely be detrimental to quality programming. It is because those larger corporations have a focus on profit over quality care.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I know in the child care legislation it says to prioritize not-for-profit public care. Knowing that there are a lot of good child care providers, do you think the priority should be public not-for-profit care?

[Maureen Farris]

I think that the priority should be public not-for-profit care, but I also think that we need to really focus hard on the centres themselves and the kind of quality they are providing.

As I mentioned, the two small centres we have here are like “mom and pop” style for-profit centres. They offer amazing, quality care. We have wonderful working relationships with those two centres.

However, the majority of care offered in this town is public not-for-profit care.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I have a question for Madam Friendly.

What are some examples of countries that have gotten it right in their child care programs that Canada should emulate?

In the alternative, what are some cautionary examples for us to avoid, particularly regarding the role of for-profit child care?

[Martha Friendly]

Actually, the countries that always come out the best in international rankings by organizations like UNICEF and the OECD, are actually the Nordic countries, particularly Sweden and Iceland.

Are they perfect? I wouldn't argue they're perfect because if you talk to people from these countries, there are things that they don't like.

The countries that always do the worst are the countries where they have a child care market where they haven't developed....

In our one year that this has been in play.... This is only the first year. Those countries have been developing their child care systems for years. There are written descriptions of how they did it, what the setbacks were, what the pitfalls were and what they did right. There's a great one about Sweden and how it developed. It's not perfect; it goes up and down.

The countries that do the worst are the countries.... I will comment on the for-profit issue here. Australia is probably the best known example of a country that became dominated by large corporate firms, even before the private equity companies got into the game. New Zealand is in the news right now because private equity firms just want to assetize child care. They're not even child care companies; they just bought them up. It's a problem to have small, better-quality child care that can be bought up because that's mostly the way these large financializations have occurred in child care.

There's a very big study in the U.K. of how the money works—

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Would you be able to submit other examples to committee in a brief?

That would be very helpful.

[Martha Friendly]

Absolutely. I'll submit some stuff in writing.