Evidence of meeting #61 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was services.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Susan Prentice  Duff Roblin Professor of Government, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Sheila Olan-MacLean  Chief Executive Officer, Compass Early Learning and Care
Amélie Lainé  Director, Partnerships and Programs, Regroupement des centres d'amitié autochtones du Québec inc.
Leila Sarangi  National Director, Campaign 2000
Emily Gawlick  Executive Director, Early Childhood Educators of British Columbia
Christopher Smith  Associate Executive Director, Muttart Foundation

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)) Liberal Bobby Morrissey

I call the meeting to order.

The clerk has advised that the witnesses' sound has been tested, as has the sound for members appearing virtually.

Welcome to meeting 61 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. Today's meeting is again taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person and remotely, using the Zoom application.

To ensure an orderly meeting, before speaking, wait until I recognize you by name. For those participating virtually, please use the “raise hand” icon on your Surface. Before speaking, make sure that you turn on your mike. For those in the room, the microphones will be controlled by the verification officer.

You have the option of speaking in the official language of your choice. If interpretation services become a problem, please get my attention, and we'll suspend while they're being corrected. Translation is available with headsets here in the room, as well as by using the translation icon on your Surface.

Unless there are exceptional circumstances, the use of headsets with a boom microphone.... I will only recognize those participating virtually if their sound quality has been approved by the translator. For those members appearing virtually, if you're not approved to participate verbally, you can still participate in any votes in the committee by simply indicating, with a thumbs-up or a thumbs-down, a yea or a nay.

Again, should any technical issues arise during the meeting, we will suspend while they're corrected.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Friday, February 3, 2023, the committee will continue its study of Bill C-35, an act respecting early learning and child care in Canada.

I would like to inform all members that the witnesses appearing, as indicated, have been checked and we are fine.

I would like to welcome our witnesses today. As an individual, we have Susan Prentice, Duff Roblin professor of government at the University of Manitoba. From Compass Early Learning and Care, we have Sheila Olan-MacLean, chief executive officer. From the Regroupement des centres d'amitié autochtones du Québec, we have Amélie Lainé, director of partnerships and programs, by video conference.

We'll begin with Ms. Prentice for five minutes, please. I will advise the witnesses that, at the end of their five minutes, I will advise them to conclude their remarks.

Ms. Prentice, you have the floor.

8:50 a.m.

Dr. Susan Prentice Duff Roblin Professor of Government, University of Manitoba, As an Individual

Good morning. Thank you.

I submitted a brief by the March 17 deadline, and my comments today draw on it. My brief is more comprehensive than what I will have time to speak to today.

I'm a university professor, a sociologist. I have published widely on historical and contemporary child care policy. I actually earned my Ph.D. for a study of child care in Toronto during World War II and the campaign to save the wartime day nurseries.

I appreciate that your job is to scrutinize the legislation and propose amendments as necessary, and I would like to help. I have two main points.

First, the most important step that I believe your committee can take is to introduce a definition of “early learning and child care” early in the act, right after the short title in the definitions section. I propose that your definition should look something like this: “Early learning and child care is a system of regulated and licensed services provided by qualified early childhood educators who have specialized post-secondary education training.”

Yesterday in committee, a member read from a brief that suggests “child care is the care of a child, regardless of who provides the care”, and I urge you to see the folly in this kind of definition for the purposes of legislation. Let me explain why.

In my house, when my spouse and kids are sick, I get out the thermometer, I make them hot lemon with ginger and I provide over-the-counter pain medication. I am of course providing health care, but you would in no way reasonably want to include what I do under health care legislation or funding. In our Winnipeg home, we have smoke and carbon monoxide detectors, and we keep our fire extinguishers fully charged. We're practising fire hygiene, but we in no way belong to public firefighting.

Similarly, early learning and child care does not mean and cannot mean care of a child wherever it occurs. It means instead a very particular kind of out-of-home early learning and child care service, one that is regulated, licensed and provided by qualified early childhood education professionals.

Your bill needs this kind of definition.

I have a second major recommendation on clause 7 on funding. The commitment to public and not-for-profit investments must be strengthened, and in my brief I provide some textual direction.

The current language directs funding in particular to public and not-for-profit providers, and it's much weaker than it should be. Keeping taxpayer dollars out of private pockets is strikingly important. It provides protection for the child care ecosystem. It ensures maximally efficient use of public dollars, and it acts as a bulwark against the negative effects on quality staffing and regulations exerted by a lobby for commercial child care, particularly those parties with obligations to shareholders.

It would be very valuable for your committee to review the experience of Australia, beginning in the 1990s. In Australia, a series of decisions about small policy and funding changes set in motion a massive expansion of for-profit child care, including a virtual monopoly. On November 6, 2008, Australia's largest single child care chain went into receivership.

The bankruptcy of this one national day care chain left more than 1,000 child care centres, over 120,000 children and 16,000 child care educators in the lurch. The Australian government had to step in to keep the lights on until a fire sale could happen. It's been called a spectacular public policy disaster. It was directly triggered by permitting public funds to go to for-profit child care businesses.

Knowing this history makes it crystal clear why Bill C-35 should prohibit public funding of commercial child care operations.

Those are my two main points. There are more in the brief. I look forward to our discussion.

Thank you.

8:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Ms. Prentice.

Now we'll go to Ms. Olan-MacLean for five minutes.

8:50 a.m.

Sheila Olan-MacLean Chief Executive Officer, Compass Early Learning and Care

Thank you very much for this opportunity.

Compass Early Learning and Care is a not-for-profit charitable organization in central Ontario caring for over 3,300 children, from birth to the age of 12. We are led by the values of trusting relationships; safe, caring, joyful spaces; diversity, equity, inclusion and justice; collective intelligence; and lifelong learning.

We recently began a visionary strategic planning process. We began by asking children what kind of world they wanted to live in. Here's what a couple of them said.

Justin, age 7, said, “I want to live in a world where everyone has a job and enough money for a safe place to live and enough food to eat with no worries, and people have to say kind things and not just what they're thinking when they think it.”

Oliver, age 3, said, “I want to live in a world where there is a big city with lots of buildings and houses. My mummy would live there, and my daddy would live there too, and me. My whole family, like my grandma and my grandpa; Debbie, too.” Debbie is their caregiver. “I like flowers, so there would be flowers, and there would be lots of bees. If they sting you, you would be able to fly because they'd put a special spell on you with their stinger.”

These are just two examples of the comments we gathered that demonstrate children's connections to family, community and their caregiver; their empathy and kindness; their connection to the natural world; and their understanding of justice and equity.

Bill C-35 has many parallel values to Compass and to the children that we interviewed. It is a strong beginning, a foundation to embed accessible, affordable, quality early learning and child care as a right for Canadians. To bring them to life, there must be solid structures that will nurture each of these concepts and inspire a groundswell of people to come together and work for the ends and the goals outlined. To create such a system, we will need three things: a stable and sustainable workforce; accessible, affordable child care; and quality programming.

For Bill C-35 to have the impact that it proposes, federal and provincial governments must understand the impact that this child care staffing crisis has, not only on child care but on every other sector in our society. Right now, Compass is working with a group from central Ontario looking at how we can increase child care for medical staff. There's a crisis. We're having hospitals call us to say they need more child care so that they can have their staff. They're all so interconnected, and it starts with child care. People can't work without child care.

A stable and sustainable workforce means that we would need to increase our professional compensation starting at $30 an hour, having a pension plan and benefits. In previous federal government initiatives for workforce strategy, funding was rolled out in Ontario with the provision that not one penny could go to compensation of any kind. It was very explicit. Much of this money went to colleges for free tuition for an ECE diploma. Colleges are now reporting that these graduates are not going into child care. In fact, they are going into higher education. They are going to school boards. They're going to Costco and even to Tim Hortons, because the wages are higher and the responsibility is less.

CWELCC has made a great contribution toward affordable child care. Our families report that they can financially breathe again—a very good thing. Accessibility will be an issue, and it's not an easy issue to address right away. It will take all of us working together to expand our system to accommodate the many families currently on our wait-list and those who are going to join shortly. Every expansion dollar will be needed for quality programs, beautiful spaces and sustainable funding.

We must send a message to for-profit corporations, shareholders and entrepreneurs that Canada is not open for child care business and that, in Canada, children are not for profit. Working together as a child care community, along with the federal, provincial and municipal governments and community partners, we can look back in 20 years and see that our vision is coming to reality.

To do this, the not-for-profit and public sectors will need access to infrastructure loans, support from groups such as Building Blocks for Child Care and support for our home child care expansion, as well as high-quality—

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Ms. Olan-MacLean.

If you could conclude....

9 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Compass Early Learning and Care

Sheila Olan-MacLean

Very good. Yes. Thank you so much.

We will need high-quality programs built on documents such as Ontario's “How Does Learning Happen?”, the B.C. and New Brunswick early learning frameworks and research to study programs that are already deeply embedded in quality.

We have excellent programs across Canada. Let's build our system on those programs. Let us not build the system on underfunded programs and the scarcity model, in which we want to save all existing child care, whether or not it's good for children.

Our language—

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Ms. Olan-MacLean.

9 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Compass Early Learning and Care

Sheila Olan-MacLean

Okay. Thank you.

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

In the question period, you'll be able to address what you missed.

9 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Compass Early Learning and Care

Sheila Olan-MacLean

Very good. Thank you.

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Ms. Lainé, you have the floor for five minutes.

9 a.m.

Amélie Lainé Director, Partnerships and Programs, Regroupement des centres d'amitié autochtones du Québec inc.

Kwe, hello.

My name is Amélie Lainé and I am the Director, Partnerships and Programs, at the Regroupement des centres d'amitié autochtones du Québec. I am also a member of the Wendake nation.

This morning, I am happy to be working on the territory of my Wendat ancestors.

I want to thank the committee for having me here, virtually, and allowing me to speak about the needs, problems and challenges facing indigenous families living in urban settings and the impact of Bill C-35.

The Regroupement des centres d'amitié autochtones is a provincial association that supports ten indigenous friendship centres and three service points in Quebec. They are located in the cities that indigenous people visit in significant numbers. The Regroupement helps develop tangible solutions and public policies to improve the well-being of the increasing number of indigenous people living in urban settings. This is a constantly growing population in Quebec but also across Canada. The Regroupement also implements innovative and proactive strategies to address indigenous people's needs and support the development and implementation of projects and programs.

The Regroupement and its centres are also members of the National Association of Friendship Centres, a network of over 120 centres that is the largest infrastructure for the delivery of services to the indigenous citizens of Canada. This infrastructure has been in existence here for over 70 years.

The indigenous friendship centres are frontline service hubs for indigenous people. They offer a range of services, such as health, well-being, social services, education and employability. They also offer family and early childhood services. They are places that value identity and culture and that offer traditional knowledge and indigenous language teaching.

The impacts of the activities of the friendship centres are numerous and documented. Well-being and health improve; a safety net is created for indigenous families living in cities far from their communities; families are empowered; diverse spaces, opportunities and experiences are created that contribute to children's healthy habits; and, most importantly, we see a desire for lifelong learning.

The early childhood services that are delivered by the friendship centres depend on the resources and the realities and issues of the urban indigenous community that supports the friendship centre. The services include early childhood learning services and guidance and psychosocial support for families. As I mentioned earlier, there are front-line services such as health clinics that enable indigenous families living in cities to overcome a number of challenges. These families experience several combined vulnerability factors. There are also programming of day camp workshops, family outings on the land, perinatal activities, various cultural activities, spaces for children to have access to educational materials, goodwill visits to pregnant women and new parents, parental respite services, and food and emergency assistance, among other things.

Bill C-35 includes funding agreements with indigenous partners to enable indigenous governance and partnerships in this area and program delivery. Those agreements are necessary: despite the multitude of early childhood and family services available, many needs are still unmet.

As we know, indigenous families living in urban areas use little to no public services, whether in Quebec or in the other provinces of Canada. There is racism and prejudice and people don't trust government institutions, so community organizations like the friendship centres become reference points, and, most importantly, places where they can access services that are culturally appropriate and safe. It is important that these families have access to specialized services, since some of them are also in the youth protection system.

To fulfil the federal government’s vision and goal for early learning and child care, Bill C-35 must take into account the diverse realities and the needs of indigenous children living in urban settings.

Co-development, partnership and collaboration are the best ways forward. Unfortunately, place of residence too often affects access to quality education services. The result is discrimination on two fronts, direct and indirect. More than 50 per cent of indigenous people in Quebec live in cities. In Canada, it is more than 60 per cent. That population is continuing to grow and needs access to high quality services. Organizations that support urban indigenous communities, like the indigenous friendship centres, continue to face jurisdictional disputes when they seek funding.

Stable, substantial and equitable funding is needed to support our families living in urban settings. At present, urban indigenous organizations that offer services have little or no access to funding relating to the early learning and child care framework for young indigenous children, to consolidate and develop their early childhood and family services, since the funding is administered by the indigenous political institutions. The investments must therefore use equitable funding models that reflect the rights and jurisdiction of all indigenous people. Urban indigenous organizations need to be able to receive equitable, flexible funding that enables us to offer services. We must have access to resources...

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Ms. Lainé.

We will now go to the first round of questioning.

Madam Ferreri, you have the floor for six minutes.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much to the witnesses. Good morning, and thank you for being here as we try to navigate the system and do all we can to ensure access to affordable quality child care for all families across Canada.

Sheila—if I can call you Sheila—it's nice to have you here from Peterborough. It's nice to see the representation from Compass. It's a wonderful facility in my riding. I've had the opportunity to visit them. They do incredible work, represent many families and have some phenomenal resources.

Sheila, if I may, can you tell me, right now, how many families are on a wait-list to access care from Compass?

9:05 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Compass Early Learning and Care

Sheila Olan-MacLean

We have about 300 in each of our programs.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

Three hundred per each.... How many programs do you have? What's the total number on the wait-list?

9:05 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Compass Early Learning and Care

Sheila Olan-MacLean

We have 40 different licensed centres, and there are about 300. Some of those may overlap, because some centres are close to each other. However, it's a lot.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

Could I get you to table that for the committee, Sheila? It would be very beneficial to see those numbers for the wait-list. That would be great.

I'm curious. Could you tell me whether you feel Bill C-35—this legislation—has improved wait-list times and access to quality child care?

9:05 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Compass Early Learning and Care

Sheila Olan-MacLean

I see this as a process. We're at the beginning, and the first part is to make it affordable for families. It's certainly doing that.

The unfortunate circumstance of that is that it increases wait-lists greatly. We also need, at the same time, a strategy to increase that access and offer expansion. Those are the two areas I would like this committee to focus on. How do we increase spaces in a sustainable and quality kind of way? The second thing is a compensation plan for our workforce. We absolutely need support with that. I think the federal and provincial governments, together, can come up with a plan that will support....

I absolutely support the—

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

I'm sorry, Sheila. I have such limited time. I know it feels as if I'm cutting you off.

9:05 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Compass Early Learning and Care

Sheila Olan-MacLean

That's okay. It's not a problem

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

I'll just confirm this: Right now, the bill definitely needs to be amended, because, the way it currently stands, it's not improving access. We need to strengthen this bill.

9:05 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Compass Early Learning and Care

Sheila Olan-MacLean

I see the bill as a good beginning. The amendments would certainly help, but I don't think we need to go for perfect before we can move forward. This bill will enshrine child care as a right for Canadians. That is such an important step for us to get beyond. Then, we can start to work on how we do that.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

Sure. I know you and I have had these great conversations. I just think it's very critical that.... We still can't forget about the people on those wait-lists. It's great for the people who are in there. This is like winning the lottery. We have to look at how to solve this.

I will move to Ms. Lainé.

I have a quick question before I ask you another question: Do you represent unlicensed child cares, as well, ma'am?

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Ms. Ferreri, I believe she's having technical problems. That's why she disappeared.

Do you want to direct a question to another panellist?