Evidence of meeting #61 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was services.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Can I have my time back to ask her that question? How does that work, Chair?
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
If you continue using your time with other panellists, it's your time.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Do we know if she's going to get back on? I do have a very specific question for her.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
I cannot answer that for you at this time. The technical people have not been able to reach her, but if we can, before this panel is out, I will let you get back for one question to her.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Can I give up my time at this point and then come back to her and see if we can get that?
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Yes. If you have one question to address to the witness we've lost, I will ensure you have that opportunity before we conclude this panel.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all our witnesses today.
Mr. Chair, I might add that I also have some very specific questions for Madam Lainé, so if she does come back, I would like to have one question. I'm happy to cede some time in order to do that.
That being the case, I would like to move to Ms. Prentice, who is here today.
Your opening remarks really lean into what we're trying to do with creating a nationwide, accessible, affordable, high-quality child care system. Can you lean in a bit more on why it's important for us to be investing in non-profit care with taxpayer dollars?
9:10 a.m.
Duff Roblin Professor of Government, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
I can. I started by advising that I think it's really urgent that the bill contain a strong definition of the services under consideration. It's going to be very important to delineate what's being discussed.
What's being discussed are early learning and child care services, which are best thought of as a public good, and public goods often are “market failures” in the language of economics.
In a labour-intensive service like child care, where somewhere between 80% and 85% of the budget is spent on the people who care for children, a profit motive invariably has quality-diminishing effects. It has quality-diminishing effects because the single most elastic budget category is staffing, and the way you make a profit in child care is to change ratios, hire fewer trained staff, see more turnover and basically shortchange children and families.
A profit motive is fundamentally incompatible with caring for vulnerable people. We saw this—if I can draw a parallel from a sister field—in Quebec, where for-profit homes for older people were much more dangerous places during the pandemic. Nominally, long-term care was provided by the same standard to all people, and we saw clear patterns where for-profit care is a more dangerous place. Vulnerable people are at greater risk in for-profit settings, and where there is a profit motive, quality invariably will suffer.
This is why it's prudent public policy to reserve taxpayer dollars to not-for-profit services, where 100% of the money goes to children and families, and none of it goes into private pockets.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
Thank you for that.
In May 2021, you wrote an op-ed that was entitled “We must eliminate profit-making from child care and elder care”. You referenced that in terms of the Quebec model on LTC.
We all witnessed what was happening during the pandemic, but could you expand on some of the reasoning for the conclusion, whether it's specifically on what you've seen in terms of the quality of care in the for-profit sector or in the non-profit? You also leaned into staff turnover rates, which, as you know, also potentially can impact quality. If you could you lean into the evidence behind your conclusions, that would be really helpful to the committee.
9:15 a.m.
Duff Roblin Professor of Government, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
I would be very pleased to table a bibliography of international research experience that could show you some of evidence-based reasons why for-profit child care in Canada, in the United States and elsewhere is of demonstrably lower quality. It's true system-wide, both in what we would call “structural quality” and in process quality on the floor. It's a vast literature. If you'll let me draw on my expertise, I'll simply say that there is a mountain of research that proves that for-profit child care is, in general, of lower quality.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
I would be pleased to have that bibliography submitted to the committee to help as we weigh in on this.
Mr. Chair, how much time do I have? I have to leave a bit of time for Madam Lainé.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
I will cede my time with the hope that I can speak to Madam Lainé.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Just to let the committee know, her Internet failed and she's attempting to reboot and reconnect. Hopefully, we'll get her back.
Thank you, Madam Saks.
Ms. Bérubé, you have the floor for six minutes.
9:15 a.m.
Bloc
Sylvie Bérubé Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank the witnesses for accepting the committee's invitation. I will take this opportunity to also thank the interpreters, whose work is important for us all.
My question is for all the witnesses.
In your opinion, are there things that it is important to add to Bill C-35?
9:15 a.m.
Duff Roblin Professor of Government, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
If it's an open question to us all, yes, I will say at least two things are missing from the legislation before us.
One is a careful definition that makes it clear that we are not speaking about all care of all children wherever it occurs. We're speaking about early learning and child care, which is a very particular kind of service. That's the first thing.
The second thing is that the protections for not-for-profit and public must be strengthened.
The third, which I get into in my brief, is that I would like to see more public transparency and accounting for the national advisory council, but for today's purposes, that's in my brief and it's secondary to my testimony today.
9:15 a.m.
Bloc
9:15 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Compass Early Learning and Care
If I may just add, a workforce strategy would be important, along with something about the expansion, but certainly I'm supporting the comments that Susan has made.
9:15 a.m.
Bloc
Sylvie Bérubé Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Who do you think should sit on the National Advisory Council on Early Learning and Child Care?
If you would answer, Ms. Prentice.
9:15 a.m.
Duff Roblin Professor of Government, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
The committee itself is off to a good start with a representative committee. I'd make a plug for more researchers, but that's inevitable.
What seems especially important to me is that the committee is supplied with the resources and data to permit it to make a thorough and robust evaluation of the progress toward the objectives of the framework and the act, so that it would be able to report it to the minister and to report publicly to Canadians.
I have some concerns that the legislation as proposed is not robust enough to fully empower the national advisory committee to be able to undertake this work. At this point, I think it's a secondary problem.
I'm going to make the observation that what's before us today is the legislation. It has a very narrow focus, and it's quite different from the kind of implementation that will roll out across the country with provinces, territories and indigenous governments. As much as I've wanted to speak to implementation, I'm trying to speak directly today to Bill C-35, specifically.
9:20 a.m.
Bloc
Sylvie Bérubé Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Do you want to add something, Ms. Olan-MacLean?
9:20 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Compass Early Learning and Care
I think that Susan has done a great job of summarizing, and I don't want to muddy the waters. Focusing on the way she has put it is fine.
9:20 a.m.
Bloc
Sylvie Bérubé Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
You know there are important factors like inflation and rising child care fees.
Do you think they should be taken into account in the long-term funding levels for child care centres?