Human Resources Committee on March 31st, 2023

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

My first question is for Ms. Lainé.

With the passing of Bill C-15 in the last Parliament, the application of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples was affirmed in Canadian law. That includes article 3, relating to the right of self-determination. We know that central to the right of self-determination is the respect for the free, prior and informed consent of indigenous peoples.

Would you support an amendment to Bill C-35 to ensure the free, prior and informed consent of indigenous peoples on matters pertaining to indigenous peoples, yes or no?

[Amélie Lainé]

I would like to answer yes or no, but I don't understand the question. It's not that I don't understand English, but I can't answer you.

I'm very sorry.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Okay. Thank you very much.

I'm talking about the right for parents' self-determination to have free, prior and informed consent on any matters relating to their children. It's to get permission.

[Amélie Lainé]

So the answer is yes. Thank you.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes. Thank you very much.

I'm moving on to Madam Prentice. It's nice to have a fellow Manitoban in the room.

We're talking about developing a national child care strategy. I know it's not going to work unless we invest in a workforce. We also know we are witnessing a workforce crisis in the child care sector that is negatively impacting workers, children and parents.

How big of a factor is inadequate wages and benefits in contributing to this crisis? Do we need a workforce strategy to address it?

[Dr. Susan Prentice]

The quality of the working conditions of the adults who care for children is a direct measure of the quality of care for children, so the two are intimately linked.

It seems important to me, however, to distinguish between what a bill and legislation can do to set a national framework, and how it then becomes implemented by governments and how it is put in place on the ground. While there is a relationship, it's not a straight line.

One thing I would like to see, for example, would be the national advisory council assured of the kind of information and data it needs, so it can track, for example, progress on strengthening the workforce. I do not think the legislation itself will contain the workforce strategy. What will be important, once the legislation is passed, is to ensure that the funding will be adequate and the action plans that are signed with each province, territory and indigenous government are of high quality and will produce child care services in a good way for everybody.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Madam Olan-MacLean, I spoke about a workforce strategy.

Do you agree that Bill C-35 needs to more directly acknowledge the workforce crisis? Would you support including an explicit commitment to supporting decent working conditions, livable wages and benefits as one of the principles guiding the federal investments in the system?

[Sheila Olan-MacLean]

I certainly would.

I agree with Susan that it doesn't have to be explicit on how we're going to do it, but it should be very clear on the importance of the workforce and that the working conditions and compensation are paramount, really.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Moving on, in 2021, the federal government—and I'll ask you this as well, Madam Prentice—promised personal support workers across Canada a wage floor of at least $25 an hour. Is it time for them to make the same commitment to child care workers and provide additional resources to provinces in order to improve wage grids from coast to coast?

I'll start with you, Madam Olan-MacLean and then move to Madam Prentice. Then I'll move over to Madam Lainé to expand on inequalities with indigenous care of children.

[Sheila Olan-MacLean]

Again, I would say absolutely.

In Ontario, we were given an $18-an-hour floor. What that did to our workforce was awful. They felt defeated. They felt that this was really important work, and they were not being compensated.

In a strategy such as you've suggested, I would like to see a floor of $30 an hour, but $25 an hour would certainly be a big improvement on that.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

Madam Prentice, go ahead quickly, please.

[Dr. Susan Prentice]

The bill should contain the kinds of principles and aspirations that lead to evidence-based best practices. This is inevitably going to mean supporting a well-qualified, well-trained workforce.

I do not believe that the bill itself needs to contain salary floors. Those ought to be part of what's written into the provincial, territorial and indigenous agreements. This is where the national action—

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Going back to that, I agree that we don't want to put salary—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Gazan, your time is over.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Gazan.

We'll now go to Madam Falk for five minutes, please.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. I want to address my first question to Madam Lainé.

Would you say that friendship centres are already providing child care?

[Amélie Lainé]

Personally, the child care services I am familiar with are the services offered in Quebec, that is, services offered by early childhood centres, called CPEs, which are high quality child care services regulated by the Government of Quebec.

Indigenous friendship centres in Quebec offer early childhood and family services, but they are not early childhood centres or child care services of that type. They do offer drop-in child care and drop-in respite services for parents. They offer services that are culturally appropriate and safe and whose aim is to meet the needs of families and children.

They are not structured child care services like in early childhood centres, but they are essential services for indigenous families in cities.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Absolutely. I have a number of friendship centres throughout my riding. I have a rural riding. I can absolutely see how community culture is reinforced and how they're safe places to go to.

I would be interested in knowing whether, across Canada, there are friendship centres that have licensed day care within the centre for that purpose, especially when we're seeing a lot of indigenous peoples coming into urban centres, which is away from their home reserve or where they're from, to a place of community.

Would you know if, across Canada, there might be centres like that?

[Amélie Lainé]

Yes, there are.

As Ms. Bérubé said, in Quebec, the indigenous friendship centre in Val-d'Or has a CPE attached to its services. The Regroupement is in the process of creating two living spaces for indigenous students and families, in Sept-Îles and Trois-Rivières, so we are going to offer child care out of those spaces where families will be able to access certain services.

I know there are child care services in some indigenous friendship centres elsewhere in Canada. Often, it is child care offered through the Aboriginal Head Start in Urban and Northern Communities, or AHSUNC, program. However, programs like that are underfunded, which is why it is important to get funding under the Indigenous Early Learning and Child Care Framework.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Okay. That leads into my next question for you.

What do the wait-lists look like with some of these organizations or centres for child care?

[Amélie Lainé]

I don't have those figures with me. However, I know that my colleagues from other Canadian provinces have said several times that there were wait lists made up primarily of children with special needs.

As you said, many people leave the communities and go to cities in order to access services that can meet their children's special needs. It's the same in Quebec. There are wait lists, particularly for the AHSUNC program, which does provide support for families. Again, I don't have any figures.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Would you be willing to go back, bring those numbers to our committee and table them for us?

[Amélie Lainé]

Yes, I will find out and I will get them to you.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Wonderful. Thank you.

That leads into my next question as well. I think we can all say that there is a great need for child care across the country. It doesn't matter what province or territory you live in. There is a need for child care.

Referring to these centres, would you say or believe that they are equipped to create more spaces? If they're not equipped, what is needed so that they can achieve that to help service and support our indigenous Canadians?