Human Resources Committee on April 21st, 2023

[Sibel Cicek]

It would be a good start.

Right now, we have a baseline in Ontario of $18 an hour, which is far too low, and frankly, somewhat insulting for ECEs. You can get a job and work as a barista, for example, and make more money than that. It's not congruent with the value that ECEs are bringing to our society. With regard to $25 an hour...I don't know what the specific number should be, but I do know that it should be much higher than it is.

Even at the YGTA, where we are able to compensate on average around $24 an hour, with extensive benefits and pension for those who are full time, we are still losing people very regularly. If you are taking a similar role at a school board, for example, in Toronto, you would be starting at about $28 an hour. Municipalities are able to pay even higher.

In Ontario, we're also subject to wage-constraint legislation right now, which is causing us another problem. We are looking for potential solutions. I know that others in the sector have called for $25 an hour. I think it would be a much better baseline to be working from than where we currently are.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Van Bynen.

Ms. Bérubé, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses here today for our study of Bill C-35. All the testimony we heard today was moving. Ms. Harim's was was also very touching and personal.

I'm now addressing all the witnesses. We talked about the support some families need, about problems related to labour and attrition, various needs, problems in terms of potential quality, and available spaces in child care centres. I want to remind you that Quebec is a model for child care services. With all that in mind, what would be the most important thing to add to the bill?

[Maryam Harim]

I'm just trying to understand. I don't understand French.

I'm sorry; I couldn't hear you. Can you go again, please?

[Sibel Cicek]

I can jump in. Is it okay if I take the question?

[Maryam Harim]

Yes, please, if somebody can help....

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Yes.

[Sibel Cicek]

We support and value the licensed child care system, and we would really like to see wording in the bill that makes it explicit that the funding provided for the realization of this plan will stay within the licensed, regulated system of child care.

We believe that the government has a role to play in ensuring that a certain set of minimum standards are maintained. That is possible in a licensed system that is publicly accountable. We would want to ensure that wording is very explicit in the legislation.

[Jennifer Ratcliffe]

I will also agree with that. As I mentioned in my brief, in proposed paragraph 7(1)(a), the wording of all types of care—all licensed facilities, regardless of whether they are not-for-profit or for-profit—should be included in the funding.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Ms. Harim, the floor is yours.

[Maryam Harim]

I completely agree with the statements both ladies have made and the huge statement that our friend from the YMCA has made, as well, that the salaries that educators are making are absolutely nothing compared to the amount of work they are putting in.

By all means, I am with this bill, but the pay needs to go up for the educators—the ECEs and the ECAs—for the kind of work that they are expected to do.

Thank you.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

I would now like us to talk about the National Advisory Council on Early Learning and Child Care. What criteria should we be taking into consideration to ensure that members of the council are representative of the diversity of Canadian society? I'd like to hear what each of you has to say about this.

Ms. Harim, you have the floor.

[Maryam Harim]

I need a minute, please.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

If you would, please identify who you want to answer your question.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

The question is for Ms. Ratcliffe.

Could you answer the question?

[Jennifer Ratcliffe]

Sure. I think it's really important for there to be representatives from each category of type of care. To the best of my knowledge, I don't believe there are any representatives from the private sector included at the moment. I think that's a very key component in order for it to be successful. Everybody has to be on the same page and, as I mentioned before, everybody has to work together.

There are simply too many children and too many families at this point to segregate it and to think that one specific type of care can manage that on its own. We all need to be on the same page and work together.

There definitely need to be representatives from all different types of category of care.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Ms. Cicek, you have the floor.

[Sibel Cicek]

Thank you.

I believe the process for applying to the national advisory council and the vetting process were quite rigorous. I don't espouse that it would be possible to represent every single perspective at that council. I feel that would be very difficult.

Certainly, there is a good array of representation currently. We would really welcome, in addition to the national advisory council, ongoing opportunities for collaboration and consultation, so that every voice could be represented, be it via the national advisory council, forums like this or other forums.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Ms. Harim, you have the floor.

[Maryam Harim]

I agree with the comments made that everyone has to be in there together, because, as I said before, it is not a winning or losing game. It is what we are doing for the families and the children, without doing any harm to the quality of care that we are offering, yet making it affordable for the families, because all of the prices, for everything you touch, have gone up.

Are the educators making the same kind of money? No, they are not. Have the prices gone up? No.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Bérubé and Ms. Harim.

Ms. Gazan, to conclude, you have six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

My first question is for Madam Harim. Thank you for your work in the area. Thank you for sharing your story about being a mom and paying for child care. You've been there and done that. Thank goodness we are getting a national child care plan put in place.

You mentioned something about wages. I feel like we need to address the elephant in the room. Nobody is joining the sector, because the wages are low and the working conditions are really harsh. If we're going to develop a plan, we have to address this head-on.

Would you agree with me that, within the legislation, we need very clearly defined wages, benefits and working conditions? That has be part of the bill if we are going to achieve having a national child care strategy.

[Maryam Harim]

Thank you. I agree 100%, more so because of the kind of work that child care workers put in. Again, I will say that I've been there, done that in the classroom with those children—cleaning them up, taking care of them, giving them quality care, and abiding by the ministry rules and regulations. We do everything.

They do not get enough credit, forget about getting enough money.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much. I couldn't agree with you more.

Madam Cicek, I'm a huge fan of YMCAs across the country. I am blessed to have one in my riding, in fact, with an early childhood education centre right in it.

The YMCA Canada submission in regard to Bill C-35 states, “Without a dedicated pipeline of new ECEs, Canada will not be able to meet the demand or fulfill the expansion goals within the agreements.”

Expanding on the question I just asked, how significant do you believe low wages, insecure working conditions and inadequate benefits are in contributing to the child care workforce crisis?