Evidence of meeting #65 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:05 a.m.
Liberal
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Mr. Chair, in the spirit of transparency, I would like to tell my colleague from the government party that I am grateful for her openness. I would have liked to see such openness towards the previous amendment, but sadly, she was not receptive.
I just want to make sure that her subamendment to the change that we would like to make to clause 11, at line 14 on page 6 does not replace the entire line with the single word “incluant” in the French version. The subamendment must contain the entire amendment that I submitted and replace one word as my colleague is suggesting.
If we just add that single word to the bill, it will weaken it. We have to talk about Indigenous peoples and official languages.
Could we ask the legislative clerk to review the text?
9:05 a.m.
Marie-Hélène Sauvé Legislative Clerk
I can confirm that the wording of amendment CPC‑7 would be added to the new version of the bill, except that the word “notamment” would be replaced by the word “incluant” in the French version.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
9:05 a.m.
Legislative Clerk
The words “in particular” would be replaced by “including”.
9:05 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Seeing no further discussion, I will call the clerk to have a recorded vote on the subamendment of Madam Saks.
(Subamendment agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)
The subamendment of Madam Saks is carried. We will now vote on the amendment as amended of Mr. Godin.
(Amendment as amended agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
Shall clause 11 carry as amended? I see a consensus.
(Clause 11 as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
(Clauses 12 and 13 agreed to)
(On clause 14)
Madam Ferreri, go ahead.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm requesting amendments as follows. I have a few here. First, I would replace lines 21 and 22 on page 7 with the following:
grams and services, funding and activities that support early learning and child care, as well as strategies to support recruitment and retention of a well-qualified workforce;
I would replace line 23 on page 7 with the following:
(b) regularly conduct engagement activities on matters relating
I would replace line 25 on page 7 with the following:
tem, including the availability of child care services, the number of families on waitlists for child care places and any progress made in reducing the number of families on waitlists;
I would add after line 28 on page 7 the following:
(d) prepare and make public an annual progress report.
You can see again, Mr. Chair, that I'm just trying to strengthen this bill, for a variety of different reasons.
Obviously, from witnesses and testimony that we've heard, the workforce has been a massive issue. The wait-lists continue to increase. We had one witness testify that they had 3,000 spaces, and 12,000 people were on the wait-list. Many centres are closing down because they just can't recruit the staff.
With these amendments, we're hoping we can strengthen that, as well as the progress report, because if there's no measurement for success, if there's no accountability, it's very hard to be successful or to change, adapt or pivot to ensure that what we're doing is in fact working.
Thank you.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Ms. Ferreri.
Before we open for debate, the committee should be aware that there's a line conflict between the amendment moved by Ms. Ferreri and amendment NDP-3 on the same. If Ms. Ferreri's amendment is adopted, the NDP amendment cannot be moved.
I have Ms. Saks on the amendment of Ms. Ferreri.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I always appreciate the desire we all have here to ensure that we have a really good system and good legislation to ensure that the system we've built through these agreements with every province and territory has sustainability and longevity to impact families in the years to come.
This is why I can't be supportive of these amendments. They go beyond the advisory role of the council. The role of the council is to collect information and advice to guide the process, but the jurisdictional responsibilities that my colleague Ms. Ferreri is talking about in terms of employment workforce and also in the monitoring and reporting on wait-lists are part of the provincial agreements. It is their responsibility to bring that information up.
The role of this council is not that of oversight or as a supervisory body. We really need to be mindful that we're entering a unique space in education with provinces and territories, and we have to be respectful of the jurisdictional boundaries. The role of the national advisory council is exactly that, advising. It is not a monitoring body, and it is not a supervisory body.
Frankly, in terms of jurisdictional responsibilities, again with indigenous communities and other communities that are part of this process, to impose a supervisory role to the council is simply not its mandate. I can't support these types of amendments.
Thank you.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Again, it's a bit frustrating. I don't understand what the role of the national council is if it's not going to implement strategies and suggestions on the biggest problems we see facing child care. Also, how are you going to monitor the data if you're not making thoughtful recommendations in the strategies around the workforce?
There have been words exchanged, saying that we care about ECEs, but then you're not approving this amendment to support the recruitment and retention of a well-qualified workforce.
I'm just not sure what the role of the national council is if there's no data reporting and there are no thoughtful recommendations.
Again, it isn't adding up in terms of what the role is.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Ms. Ferreri.
Seeing no further discussion, I'll call for a vote on the amendment of Ms. Ferreri.
We'll have a recorded vote, Clerk.
(Amendment negatived: nays 7, yeas 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The amendment was defeated, so that will allow the amendment by Ms. Gazan to be moved.
Go ahead, Ms. Gazan.
9:15 a.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you, Chair.
This NDP amendment proposes that Bill C-35 in clause 14 be amended by replacing line 23 on page 7 with the following:
(b) consult broadly with individuals and organizations that have an interest in early learning and child care, including parents, the early childhood education workforce, child care providers, advocates and policy and research specialists, on matters relating
That's what we're proposing for an amendment. It's not that I didn't like some of the amendments that were proposed by the Conservative Party, but I felt like it might be a bit overly prescriptive in terms of allowing the council to make those kinds of decisions as specialists in the field. I thought the amendment would give more autonomy to the groups I mentioned.
Our amendment also supports having a report included in the minister's report, so it puts more responsibility on the minister.
I think we're going in a similar direction, but it's stronger.
I'll leave it at that, thank you.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Is there any discussion?
We have Ms. Ferreri, on the amendment of Ms. Gazan.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
I just want to be on the record on this. I think it is prescriptive, based on the issues that were put forward at consultation. I think that's what our job is here, to listen to the people who have come forward and shared their concerns. It's a little frustrating.
I just feel that the way this legislation is written is that the government—the Liberals and the NDP—are deciding what's best for everybody, rather than listening to everyone who's come to the table and all the people who have been left out.
I just want that on the record. It feels like we're not listening to people.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you.
Seeing no further discussion, I will call a recorded vote on the amendment of Ms. Gazan.
(Amendment agreed to: yeas 10; nays 1)
We will now vote on clause 14 as amended.
We'll have a recorded vote, clerk.
(Clause 14 as amended agreed to: yeas 7; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
We now have a proposed new clause, 14.1.
9:20 a.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Yes. Thank you, Chair.
What the NDP is proposing is that Bill C-35 be amended by adding after line 28 on page 7 the following new clause:
14.1 The Minister must, on request of the Council, provide the Council with any information related to the Canada-wide early learning and child care system that is in the Minister's possession and that the Minister is authorized to share.
This was something that came directly from advocates in the field in terms of accountability mechanisms for the minister. This amendment is merely echoing voices from leading advocates in the field.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to my colleague. I agree with her. We do want to listen to experts in the field and the evidence that guides us towards a better system for kids across this country.
Chair, I have a small subamendment to what Ms. Gazan is proposing, which I'd like to read.
That the Minister may, on request of the Council, provide the Council with any information respecting the Canada-wide early learning and child care system that is related to the Council's functions and that is in the Minister's possession, if it is within the Minister's authority to share the information.
As always, we want to make sure that there is a collaborative effort and approach to this. We want to be supportive, rather than prescriptive, understanding jurisdiction and the roles that each level of government plays in creating this system.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Ms. Saks.
I'll just make sure the committee members have the subamendment. I have “amendment” here because this was a new clause that was moved by Ms. Gazan. We have a subamendment currently moved by Ms. Saks.
The legislative clerk has received the subamendment. It is in order. We'll move to a discussion on it as soon as the clerk has circulated it to all committee members.
The clerk has advised that the subamendment of Ms. Saks on the new clause 14.1, as moved by Ms. Gazan, is in order. You should all have it, so we will move to debate on the subamendment of Ms. Saks.
Ms. Gazan, did you have your hand up on that?
9:25 a.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
I just want to say that changing “The Minister must” to “The Minister may” is a major amendment. I accept that this is probably as far as we're going be able to take it. I'll accept that subamendment in the spirit of trying to move this forward, but I just want to have on record that there is a massive difference between saying, “The Minister must,” and saying, “The Minister may.”
9:25 a.m.
Liberal