Human Resources Committee on April 28th, 2023

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

This gets more and more frustrating, to be honest with you.

In the last amendment, we're going to be too prescriptive, and now we're doing this. It's like we listen when it's convenient for whatever it is we want to achieve.

It's a major issue, what my colleague has just said, but in the spirit of moving it along.... That's so frustrating. Maybe the minister will and maybe the minister won't.

The biggest problem we have right now with this government is that there's no accountability. There are no consequences for anything. If we're caring for children and if the nucleus of this conversation is children, but she can or can't depending on how she feels, or maybe doesn't, it's ridiculous.

I think this is majorly watering it down, so I am frustrated with my colleague for saying in the spirit of moving it forward, when she's just said it's a major difference. Now you're passing the buck on accountability in the name of child welfare. None of this makes any sense.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Ferreri.

We'll go to Mrs. Gray and then Monsieur Godin.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This one-word change completely changes the context of this. The NDP might as well withdraw it, because ministers may do anything at any time. There's really no purpose to this. It completely removes the transparency and the accountability that I think were part of the purpose of this amendment, which made sense.

To even suggest this is completely removing anything the government would be mandated to do. You might as well not even bother having it. It's very frustrating that this would even be considered. It's absolutely unbelievable.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Monsieur Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As my colleague has just said, the amendment put forth by the NDP seeks to create a requirement. Nothing in the act would require the minister to share information with the council and vice versa at any point in time. However, the NDP proposed an amendment seeking to require the minister to provide information at the request of the council. There's no choice involved, but rather a requirement. And yet Ms. Saks has submitted a subamendment that changes the meaning of the amendment. The NDP has just said that it will support the subamendment. Is it because the NDP is in bed with the Liberal Party? I believe so.

We saw the exact same thing on the Standing Committee on Official Languages. The Liberals wanted to speed things up. However, they did not submit their amendments to the committee, but did so after the report was tabled in the House of Commons. We've lost time yet again. We haven't even reached the third reading stage. We have to vote on the report. In the case of the official languages committee that I was referring to, the Liberals did exactly the same thing: they tabled a motion to add the word “may”. We wanted to make the government take positive steps, but the Liberals preferred to say that the government “may” take these positive steps.

We are seeing the same tactic being deployed today. Something is wrong here: the NDP submits an amendment, and the Liberal government tables a subamendment to weaken the amendment, which the NDP will then support. The NDP sought to require the minister to provide information. As one of my colleagues was saying, in the bills that are drawn up by the Liberals, there is sadly no obligation to be accountable.

I am not a regular member of this committee, but I am just as frustrated as my colleagues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

Ms. Gazan.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Since Mr. Godin is talking about who I'm sleeping with, talking about being in bed with the Liberals, I think we should watch that language. In any case, I'm going to be honest: I'm not happy with this subamendment. In the spirit of moving this forward and not losing the recommendations coming from the field, it's very clear that this is the last straw on this particular amendment. I will support the subamendment, with the recognition that it is a significant change.

I agree with my colleagues to the right, no pun intended, but I think this is as far as it's going to go. I just wanted to have that on record.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Ms. Falk has her hand up, but Ms. Gray has asked for a momentary suspension. I'm going to suspend for a couple of moments at the request of Ms. Gray. We'll suspend for two minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We were discussing the subamendment of Ms. Saks, but the first hand I had up when we suspended was Ms. Falk's, which is now down.

Ms. Falk, do you want the floor? You had your hand up when we suspended, but I see it's down now, and Ms. Ferreri has indicated she wants the floor. Is your hand down?

Ms. Falk, can you hear me?

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

I can hear you now.

That's fine. Yes, my hand is down.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Ferreri, on the subamendment of Ms. Saks.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Listen, I've said a lot of what I wanted to say, which is on the accountability and transparency piece of this. At the end of the day, if the people who are in charge of children have nobody to answer to, that's a major issue in terms of the welfare of the child. That's what this comes down to.

To my colleague down the way, whom I respect greatly and with whom we work really well together, this is really upsetting. If you say you want to move this forward, then don't do this with them, because your amendment is better. This subamendment is going to water down accountability and transparency.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, comments should be through you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Long.

Continue, Ms. Ferreri.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Long, for reminding me.

It's what agreement is in place, so I.... It's just infuriating that you're saying you want to move this along.... Let's move it along. If you vote no on their subamendment, then we can keep your amendment, which we agree with, and we can move forward and keep this bill moving forward.

There's no accountability, there's no transparency and, at the end of the day, guess who suffers as a result of that, Mr. Chair? It's the child. If we want to help our future, that's what we're here for—children.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Ferreri.

I have Ms. Falk, Ms. Gazan and then Monsieur Godin.

Monsieur Godin, do you have a point of order?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Yes, I am rising on a point of order, Mr. Chair.

My colleague from the NDP previously accused me of talking about her personal life. I would like to play back what she said because I can guarantee that she did not understand what I said. I did not make anything up: her leader said he was very proud of the coalition between the NDP and the Liberal Party. I was speaking of that coalition.

I would like my colleague to withdraw her comment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Monsieur Godin.

Madam Gazan, do you want to comment?

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'll withdraw that comment.

I was making a side joke just because we were talking about being in bed with the Liberals and things like that. I'm sorry if it offended, but I was making a cheeky response in response to being accused of being in bed with the Liberals.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madam Gazan.

I'll just remind members that disrespectful language towards another member is not allowed. It's out of order.

Thank you, Monsieur Godin and Madam Gazan.

We'll go to Ms. Falk.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you very much, Chair.

In discussion of the subamendment, through you, Chair, the NDP's original amendment is better. It is better, and I sure hope that the NDP does not settle for less in this case.

I just want to put on the record that it's frustrating for me, because I'm hearing a lot about moving things along—and we've heard this a lot, actually, throughout this study, since this has been in committee—and about working in collaboration and getting things done, but at what cost? That is my question, through you, Chair, for the NDP.

This NDP amendment is stronger than the Liberal subamendment and, through you, Chair, I would ask that our NDP colleague sitting at the table not settle for what the Liberals are wanting her to settle for. As my colleague Ms. Ferreri said, this language matters. The original amendment is very much stronger. It holds the accountability and helps with transparency.

At the end of the day, it's for the kids. This legislation is supposed to be for the children, for the next generation to come into this country and, through you, Chair, I'm just letting our NDP colleague know that her amendment is much better than this subamendment that's being offered by the Liberals.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Falk.

Seeing no further discussion, I'll call for a recorded vote on....

Ms. Gazan, you have the floor.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I appreciate all the feedback.

The reality is that it is the NDP that put this whole amendment forward in the beginning to have any sort of accountability and transparency in the bill. We have been very clear that we're getting direction from people in the field in terms of what is satisfactory to them—people who are working in the field and advocating in the field.

My fear—to my Conservative colleagues, through you, Chair—is that, with support with members from the field, should we not accept this amendment, there will be nothing. I don't like it, but I will be supporting the Liberal amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Ferreri.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

To my colleague.... I'm having a hard time understanding the math there, because if you vote no to their subamendment, your amendment.... We've all told you we'll vote for it, so that makes no sense.

You're settling—