Human Resources Committee on April 28th, 2023

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Are we voting on that, Mr. Chair, if it's ruled inadmissible?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

New clause 14.1 has already been adopted by the committee, as amended by the subamendment.

Shall clause 15 carry? No amendments have been submitted.

(Clause 15 agreed to)

(On clause 16)

We will now move to clause 16. I believe we have amendments.

Madam Ferreri, you have the floor.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The amended clause put forward replaces line 31 on page 7 with the following:

The Minister and the Minister of Labour must prepare and make public

and line 35 on page 7 with the following:

system, and respecting a national labour strategy to recruit and retain a qualified early childhood education workforce.

I certainly feel like a broken record here, Mr. Chair, with what we continue to bring to the table and with what I've said repeatedly from listening to everybody. The reality is that if there is no consequence for a bad job, if there is no measurement tool for success, how in the world can you ever expect any operation to complete its duty? What is the incentive to do the job?

If the minister and the Minister of Labour are not preparing and making public these annual statements, how are we supposed to measure the success of the program?

It will never work without it, and we need to have that data. If there's anything I've seen in this place—in Parliament, in doing studies in committee—it's that there is a massive lack of data in understanding how things are working. It really removes the emotional part of a lot of these topics that are extremely emotional, to be honest with you. When you have the science, the data and the reports, it speaks volumes in itself.

I would really urge everyone at this table to think long and hard about what we're saying to everybody. We are in a bit of a crisis, quite frankly, in this country, where there is no accountability and no transparency. We see constant ethics violations every day in this country.

If there are no consequences and no measurements in place, what is the point? What incentive is there for anyone to do anything legally, correctly or well? The bar has just continued to slide in this country in terms of doing a good job and of having the welfare of people—in this instance, it's children, our country's most precious resource—at the forefront.

That is my amendment, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Before I open the floor to discussion, if the amendment by Ms. Ferreri is adopted, then NDP-5 cannot be moved.

Is there discussion on the amendment by Ms. Ferreri?

Madam Saks.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Through you, I would just say that we all want good legislation. We all want what's best for our kids when they head off to day care and have the best possible start. That is why the agreements that we put in place with every province and territory in this country have very specific frameworks in terms of workforce, in terms of reporting to the secretariat, and so on and so forth.

Through you, Chair, naming the Minister of Labour would actually be in conflict with clause 4 in terms of the designation of minister that's in this legislation. I would remind colleagues that at the federal level, the labour minister can only act jurisdictionally on federally regulated workforces. The ECE workforce is a provincial workforce, and appropriately so, through the agreements. Education is also jurisdictionally under provincial purview as part of our Constitution, and the ECE workforce, I would remind colleagues, is part of the provincially regulated system.

That being said, I support our continuing to work with provinces and territories to ensure that there is a strong and capable workforce, respected but also high quality, and to ensure that those mechanisms through the agreements are in place. Frankly, the Minister of Labour simply doesn't have jurisdictional power here. It would be really beyond the scope of the Minister of Labour to engage in such activity with a non federally regulated workforce, because it's really not within their responsibilities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Before we go on, I will clarify that if CPC-9, currently under discussion, is adopted, neither NDP-5 nor BQ-3 can be moved. There's a line conflict with both.

We'll return to the discussion on the amendment of Madam Ferrari.

Ms. Ferrari, you have the floor.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Why are we ducking accountability? I guess that's the first question. We already did that in the last amendment. What is the other agenda, if we're ducking this? Make the legislation stronger. I mean, there is no doubt—you can't dispute what we've heard—that there's a massive labour problem. You can't fix the child care wait-list if you don't fix the labour shortage. Make the legislation stronger and address this issue.

Respectfully, we're way past jurisdiction. This has already bled into every province and territory. This is done. These are signed. These agreements are already done, and now every witness we've had that was Liberal-leaning has said, yeah, well, it's going to be the responsibility of the provinces and territories. You've set the provinces and territories up to fail without having any accountability and transparency as a federal government to ensure that they're supported for a strong workforce. Again, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Through you, Mr. Chair, it just doesn't make any sense to me that we're passing this. I think there's an opportunity here to be leaders federally, and to help our workforce, and to tell these important workers that we “have their back”, which is one of the Liberals' most famous sayings. Again, strengthen the legislation, then, and show that the workforce strategy is important to you. Don't just pass the buck to the provinces, because right now, the way this legislation is written, it is set up to fail.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Ferrari.

Madam Falk, go ahead on the amendment of Ms. Ferrari.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Through you, Chair, honestly, the hypocrisy is so frustrating here, hearing from the Liberals that it's provincial jurisdiction and out of jurisdiction. This government does not care about jurisdiction. We know that from looking at previous legislation or even just their telling the provinces what to do with the carbon tax, for example. You do it the Liberal government's way or they enforce it and make you do it anyway.

Mr. Chair, I just need to highlight the fact that the hypocrisy is ridiculous. Using the reasoning that this is out of jurisdiction and it's actually up to the provinces is absolutely ludicrous. I can't believe the Liberals are using that as an excuse to not support this amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mrs. Gray and then Ms. Ferreri.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With regard to this amendment, there's nothing in here about ministerial jurisdiction or provincial jurisdiction. One of the most important parts of this is talking about making public the reporting that will be done. Why would we not want data and reporting to be public?

It eventually does become public, but it's a long and convoluted process. There's a report, and then a member of Parliament has to submit an Order Paper question, or maybe someone in the media has to request an ATIP—access to information. Reports eventually make their way into the public realm. It's just that it takes a lot more effort and work, and in the meantime people don't have information in order to make good decisions.

One of the most important parts of this is to make public the data and reporting that the government will be using in order to make its decisions. Also, presumably, these reports will be used for future negotiations with the provinces, because they'll see what's working and what hasn't worked. This simply makes that information public, so that parliamentarians—whoever the parliamentarians of the day are—can see that and hold the government to account—whoever the government of the day is—and move forward with better policies.

I can't see why someone wouldn't want to support this, so that there's openness and transparency as to how this child care program is working across the country and so that better decisions can be made. That's really what the premise of this is for.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Ferreri.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think, for anybody watching at home, it's blatant that the Liberals are trying to dodge accountability here. The rationale provided to this committee.... Why wouldn't you want to provide public documents on this? I just want to read this, because I think it's timely when we have the largest federal strike in Canadian history outside the doors here.

This was to committee. It's testimony from the Canadian Union of Public Employees, and it encourages the Government of Canada to develop and implement a workforce strategy that is informed by frontline workers and child care advocates. It says a workforce strategy must result in concrete actions and deliverables on how to make the early learning and child care sector a safe, secure, well-qualified and well-compensated career option.

I'm pretty sure that's the federal government's job, and that's what we're asking for. Again, I'm not sure how many times you can say it in one committee, but it doesn't make any sense.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Mr. Clerk, we'll call a vote on the amendment, CPC-9, of Ms. Ferreri.

(Amendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

With CPC-9 defeated, we'll now move to NDP-5.

Ms. Gazan.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

We're talking about accountability, and I think my amendment is stronger in terms of forcing accountability on the government.

The other thing—just as an aside to one of the reasons I couldn't support...and am proceeding forth with my amendment—is that we don't have a workforce strategy in place. This is problematic, and it's something that I've been bringing up—that this isn't going to work without a workforce strategy. Unfortunately, they haven't put one on the table yet.

What I'm proposing for this one is that Bill C-35, in clause 16, be amended by replacing lines 31 to 35 on page 7 with the following:

16(1) At the end of the fiscal year, the Minister must prepare a report that contains

(a) a summary of information in the Minister's possession relating to the federal investments made in respect of the Canada-wide early learning and child care system during the fiscal year;

(b) an assessment of the progress being made respecting that system, including information on the quality, availability, affordability, accessibility and inclusiveness of early learning and child care programs and services; and

(c) a summary of the advice provided by the Council under paragraph 14(a) and the work of the Council during the reporting period.

(2) The Minister must cause the report to be tabled in each House of Parliament on any of the first 15 days on which that House is sitting after the report is completed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Before we begin discussion, I'd remind committee members that if NDP-5 as moved by Ms. Gazan is adopted, BQ-3 cannot be moved, due to a line conflict.

We will proceed with discussion on the amendment moved by Ms. Gazan.

Ms. Saks, do you want the floor?

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank my colleague from the NDP. She and I have had many conversations about the workforce and the need for really getting it up to speed and making sure that child care.... I know she, herself, was an ECE for many years, and the level of respect for the high-quality training, long hours and strong commitment to our children really needs to be reflected. That's something I continually hope to do in our working tables with the provinces and the Grits. I know that's not the perfect answer, but it's one that's true to the agreements we have today.

I appreciate her efforts in strengthening this. I'd like to make a small subamendment, if I can, in paragraphs (a) and (b), which would be:

(a) a summary of the information in the Minister’s possession and within the Minister’s authority to disclose relating to the federal investments made in respect of the Canada-wide early learning and child care system during the fiscal year;

and

(b) a summary of the progress being made respecting that system, including information relating to the quality, affordability and inclusiveness of early learning and child care programs and services and to the access to those programs and services;

I'll highlight the reason for these slight changes.

We want to make sure that there are agreements in place; that there's information being shared—some of it is fiscal; and that it's not always within the authority of the minister to be able, as per the agreements, to disclose at certain times when it's under review. We also want to make sure we respect the agreements and the communication we have with the provinces in building out this system, while at the same time making sure that there is an information flow-through that can allow for the right improvements that need to be made based on the data that's being provided.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

A subamendment has been moved.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

I believe that's been submitted to the clerk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Is it in order?

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Oh, Chair, I'd just like to add, in terms of the other aspects of Ms. Gazan's amendments, we are supportive. It's just paragraphs (a) and (b).

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We have a subamendment moved by Ms. Saks. I've been advised that it is in order. I will just check before we get into debate that all members have it.

[The Clerk]

It's been sent.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

It's been sent to your P9, so all committee members have a copy of the subamendment of Ms. Saks.

I'll go to Ms. Gazan and then Ms. Gray on the subamendment.

I'm sorry, just a moment. Are you asking to suspend before we debate?

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Yes.