Human Resources Committee on April 28th, 2023

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Comments should be through the chair.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

I know. They should be through you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Van Bynen.

That argument makes no sense. You have the numbers on this side. There are 11 people. One, two, three, four, five, six.... It makes no sense.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Ferreri.

I'll remind members again to direct their comments through the chair.

I call a recorded vote on Ms. Saks's subamendment.

(Subamendment agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

Ms. Saks.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've heard everyone around the table. We have a goal here to put in place legislation that will support the agreements that have already been put in place. We want to make sure we have a process and a system that incorporates stakeholders and an open conversation with the federal government and the minister and the national advisory council to ensure that we're getting the best information while the provinces and territories also meet their obligations under their agreements in terms of accountability, transparency and implementation.

In the spirit of that, of strengthening the relationship to ensure that our system is one that is accountable and listening to those in the field, I'd like to propose the following subamendment to new clause 14.1:

The Minister may, on request of the Council, provide the Council with any information respecting the Canada-wide early learning and child care system that is related to the Council's functions and that is in the Minister's possession, if it is within the Minister's authority to share the information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We'll suspend for a moment. The committee will suspend for two minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Okay.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair and legislative clerks. We're okay to move ahead with new clause 14.1 as amended. I apologize. I withdraw....

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Now we're voting on—

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I would like to be allowed to speak.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

—new clause 14.1 as amended.

Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a question for my colleague from the NDP.

I would like to know what she was seeking to do when she proposed her amendment and what made her change her mind and made her vote in favour of the Liberals' subamendment, which actually weakened her own amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

Mrs. Gray.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Now that we have a newly revised amendment here, it completely changes what is before us, what was sent in previously, which was a good and strong amendment dealing with accountability and transparency. This newly amended amendment really doesn't say anything, because saying that the minister may do something.... The minister may get someone a coffee. What's in here.... There's absolutely no accountability that the minister has to do anything. The minister may, if the minister wants to.

It's a completely redundant clause now. There's no purpose to it. You could list anything after this, Mr. Chair.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

I have a point of order.

With the greatest respect, we've already voted on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We have not adopted new clause 14.1.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mrs. Gray has the floor and is in order.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I know it's sometimes a little challenging to follow along, with all these subamendments being dropped at the last minute, without prior notice.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Let's speak to the clause currently on the floor.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

This dramatically changes the context of it. There's really no purpose to it anymore. There's no accountability, no transparency and no requirement that the minister do anything. It has completely changed the whole context of it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Seeing no further debate, Mr. Clerk, we'll call the vote on new clause 14.1, as proposed by NDP-4 and amended.

(Amendment as amended agreed to: yeas 6: nays 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings]).

We're still on clause 14.1.

Madam Bérubé, do you wish to move an amendment?

Do you have an amendment you'd like to speak to?

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I propose that Bill C‑35 be amended by adding after line 28, page 7 the following new clause:14.1 Quebec retains sole responsibility for implementing, evaluating and adapting its early learning and child care policies and programs in Quebec, and therefore the council's functions do not extend to early learning and child care, or any other related activity, in Quebec.

This amendment serves to reiterate Quebec's sole jurisdiction in this area. Quebec does not wish to be evaluated or monitored by some council that answers to Ottawa. This area, in which Quebec is a pioneer, falls under provincial jurisdiction. The amendment comes at the request of the Cabinet of Quebec's Finance Minister, and we hope that everyone will support the amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Before we go to debate, my role as chair is to ensure that the committee follows the rules and orders that are adopted by the House of Commons.

Having said that, Bill C-35 sets out the Government of Canada's vision for a Canada-wide early learning and child care system. The amendment proposes to allow the government of Quebec to retain sole responsibility for its early learning and child care policies and to exclude Quebec from the functions of the national advisory council on early learning and child care created by the bill.

As House of Commons Procedure and Practice, 3rd Edition states on page 770, “An amendment to a bill that was referred to committee after second reading is out of order if it is beyond the scope and principle of the bill.”

In the opinion of the chair, as advised by the legislative clerk, the amendment is contrary to the bill's stated principle of creating a Canada-wide system. Such a council's function would not extend to the province of Quebec; therefore, I rule the amendment inadmissible. My ruling is not debatable, but it can be challenged.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Chair, I am challenging your decision.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Bérubé.

The ruling of the chair has been challenged. I have to put it to the committee.

Is it the committee's wish to uphold the ruling of the chair?

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 10; nays 1)

My ruling was on the inadmissibility of the amendment by Madame Bérubé.

We'll now go to a vote on new clause 14.1, as amended.