Human Resources Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Bérubé.

As chair, I must ensure that the orders or rules adopted by the House of Commons are followed, and your amendment is not admissible based on the same ruling I made earlier.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Chair, I challenge your ruling.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

My ruling is that the amendment is inadmissible. Madame Bérubé has challenged my decision. It is not debatable and it goes immediately to a vote.

Mr. Clerk, we will have a recorded vote on the decision of the chair.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Just to clarify, Clerk, is it that I am voting on sustaining the chair's decision?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I'm sorry; let me clarify that. The vote is on whether the committee accepts the ruling of the chair.

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 6; nays 5)

The ruling of the chair has been upheld.

Is there an amendment on the preamble?

Go ahead, Madame Bérubé.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Amendment BQ‑5 moves that Bill C‑35, in the preamble, be amended by adding after line 19 on page 1 the following:

Whereas the Government of Canada recognizes the unique and leading-edge expertise of the Government of Quebec in the development and implementation of accessible and affordable educational child care services, that government having developed an innovative child care model in 1997 as part of its comprehensive family policy designed to give Quebec families a better work– or study-life balance, access to generous maternity and parental leaves, and services that are suited to self-employed workers and those with atypical hours of work;

This amendment is important for guiding interpretations of this bill and the actions that will result from it. Our amendment clearly enshrines in the bill Quebec's historical capacity and expertise with respect to its jurisdiction and family policy. I urge all my colleagues to support it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Bérubé.

Your motion is inadmissible since it has not been made necessary by a previous amendment to the bill. The amendment seeks to make a substantive modification by adding new elements to the preamble. As House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, states on page 774:

In the case of a bill that has been referred to a committee after second reading, a substantive amendment to the preamble is admissible only if it is rendered necessary by amendments made to the bill. In addition, an amendment to the preamble is in order when its purpose is to clarify it or to ensure the uniformity of the English and French versions.

In the opinion of the chair, the proposed amendment is substantive. Therefore, I rule the amendment inadmissible.

Do you accept my ruling?

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Chair, I challenge your ruling.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mr. Clerk, we'll call a recorded vote on the ruling of the chair on the inadmissibility of Madame Bérubé's amendment.

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 6; nays 5)

The ruling of the chair has been upheld. We will now move to an amendment from Madame Gazan, I believe.

No?

It's Madame Bérubé. Madame Bérubé, you have the floor.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Amendment BQ‑6 moves that Bill C‑35, in the preamble, be amended by adding after line 3 on page 2 the following:

Whereas the Government of Canada recognizes that, because of the special and unique nature of the jurisdiction of the Government of Quebec relating to early learning and child care and because Quebec developed accessible, affordable and quality educational child care services as part of its family policy of 1997, the Government of Quebec did not agree to the multilateral framework since it intends to retain sole responsibility for this matter within its boundaries;

This amendment is important because it recognizes all the work done by the Quebec government for over 25 years now in the area of family policy and early childhood education. The Government of Quebec declined Ottawa's invitation to participate in the meetings to develop the multilateral framework and learning. The reason for that is simple: Quebec is responsible for its own jurisdiction and takes full responsibility for its family policy and educational framework. In this sense, it is not accountable.

Once again, I urge my colleagues to vote in favour of this amendment and recognize Quebec's jurisdiction in this matter.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Bérubé.

Your amendment, identified as Bloc Québécois 6, is inadmissible since it has not been made necessary by a previous amendment to the bill. The amendment seeks to make a substantive modification by adding new elements to the preamble. As, again, House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, states on page 774:

In the case of a bill that has been referred to a committee after second reading, a substantive amendment to the preamble is admissible only if it is rendered necessary by amendments made to the bill. In addition, an amendment to the preamble is in order when its purpose is to clarify it or to ensure the uniformity of the English and French versions.

In the opinion of the chair, the proposed amendment is substantive. Therefore, I rule the amendment inadmissible.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Chair, I challenge your ruling.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mr. Clerk, we'll call for a recorded vote on the decision of the chair that the amendment is not admissible.

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 10; nays 1)

We will now move to amendment NDP-6.

Madame Gazan, you have an amendment to the preamble.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes. It's that Bill C-35, in the preamble, be amended by adding after line 29 on page 2 the following:

Whereas the Government of Canada is committed to upholding the right of Indigenous peoples to be consulted in order to obtain their free, prior and informed consent for legislation pertaining to Indigenous children;

There are a couple of reasons this is important. One is that the committee approved the amendment contained within the bill, which makes it a necessary change.

The other thing is that I know Ms. Reddin indicated that amending the bill by adding “free, prior and informed consent” served no purpose. However, in the framework agreement that was signed, there is mention that indigenous peoples have a right to self-determination over matters impacting their kids. The very definition of self-determination is actually “free, prior and informed consent”, so the framework confirms that.

I'm merely stating what's already stated in the framework. If there was a concern about free, prior and informed consent, then perhaps they should have looked at that when they were developing the framework in consultation with indigenous peoples. In the framework, they recognize self-determination. Again, self-determination is defined as the right of indigenous peoples to free, prior and informed consent on matters impacting children.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Gazan.

Your amendment is admissible because of the acceptance of the amendment to the preamble that was adopted on Tuesday, April 25. Your amendment today to the preamble is consistent with the clause change that was adopted earlier by the committee. It is admissible, so we'll open the floor for debate.

Ms. Saks, you have the floor.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to acknowledge my colleague. She is a fierce advocate for indigenous families and children. I stand with her today in her statements and the many things that she advocates.

I know you come to this with a fierce love and compassion and a desire to truly push us all toward reconciliation.

I would like to clarify that Ms. Reddin's comments were about the implementation and were not meant to say that FPIC is not of any value.

I'll keep my comments brief. We are fully committed to these principles. I don't think there's a single member of this committee or in this House who is not. However, I want to remind all of us that there is a process and a table where UNDRIP is in the framework so that it can be effectively implemented in our legislation, including free, prior and informed consent. It is currently in process, and as servants of the Crown, we want to make sure that indigenous leadership does not see pre-emptive legislation or the interpretation of that.

I want to ensure that we're fully supportive of protecting all children and indigenous children. I thank my colleague for her advocacy and understand the importance of this being in the preamble. However, I would like to remind all of us of the importance of both principle and process.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Saks.

We'll now go to Ms. Ferreri and then Ms. Gazan on Ms. Gazan's amendment to the preamble.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

It's hard not to get frustrated in these discussions: “Yes, no. We care about you, but we don't.” That is what we hear. I think the Liberals campaigned on “nothing about us, without us”, and yet they're saying “We think you're doing a great job, but we're not actually going to do anything about it.”

As Conservatives, I think what's also frustrating is that we supported this amendment. Obviously we believe that indigenous people should absolutely have the choice to decide what happens with their children—they should be consulted—just as we feel that every parent should have the choice to choose what is best for their children. That is what we fought tirelessly for—

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair: There's no interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We'll suspend for a moment, Madame Bérubé.

I'm told that the translation has resumed.

Ms. Ferreri, you have the floor.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This speaks volumes to where we're at and our commitment to allowing parents, regardless of—

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Chair, the sound quality is not good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I'm sorry, Ms. Ferreri. We'll have to suspend. There's a sound quality problem in the committee room. We'll suspend for a few moments while we get it corrected.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Okay, we'll resume.

For the benefit of the translators and interpreters, there will only be one mike open in the room at a time. That will be for the person who is speaking.

The floor was Ms. Ferreri's when we suspended.

You have the floor.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think this is very important. I was talking with my colleague. There's a motion right now, an amendment to the preamble, that was put forward by the NDP:

Whereas the Government of Canada is committed to upholding the right of Indigenous peoples to be consulted in order to obtain their free, prior and informed consent for legislation pertaining to Indigenous children;

This was put forth as an amendment, and the Conservatives supported it. We've heard from the Liberals that they're not going to support this suggestion for the preamble that has been put forward.