Human Resources Committee on May 16th, 2023

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We do have a quorum, and we have respected the 10-minute time from the announcement of the vote in the chamber, so with that, I will call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 69 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House of Commons order of reference of June 23, 2022.

I will remind committee members that no screenshots are permitted of the meeting or photos of the in-room session.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would ask you to get my attention by raising your hand and waiting until I recognize you.

You can choose the official language of your choice. Interpretation services are available. To ensure adequate interpretation, I would remind members to speak slowly for the benefit of the interpreters. Those appearing virtually can use the interpretation language icon at the bottom of their surface.

Should any technical issues arise, please get my attention, and we will suspend while they're being corrected.

Today's meeting is a continuation of a meeting when we had witnesses before the committee and because of voting procedures in the House of Commons we did not get to conclude that. As was the agreement of the committee, we will begin today's meeting with one round with Ms. Houle.

There will be no statements given at the start of this meeting. We'll go directly to continuing on with the questioning where we left off at the last meeting.

It was agreed that it's one round with Madam Houle of five minutes, five minutes, two and a half minutes and two and a half minutes.

We'll begin.

Is the official opposition ready, Madam Gray?

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Yes, we're all good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

It's Mr. Aitchison, I take it.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

We'll begin with Mr. Aitchison for five minutes, please.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you.

Welcome.

I'll start by begging your forgiveness. I was not here when you actually spoke. I did read your testimony, though, and appreciate the presentation you made and the work that you do.

I think I have a very easy question to start. Would you agree that Canada is in a housing crisis right now?

[Marie-Josée Houle, Federal Housing Advocate, Office of the Federal Housing Advocate, Canadian Human Rights Commission]

Mr. Chair, I answered that question at the last meeting. Yes, I agree that Canada is in a housing crisis right now.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

My next question is about process.

Have you ever met with the Minister of Housing, our current minister?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

I've had a couple of meetings with the minister, yes.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I'm assuming those discussions were productive.

Is it your sense that the government takes the situation seriously, that they see it as a crisis, or is it your sense that they don't?

I've asked the minister this question directly. I'm curious to know if your sense is that this government is as seized of the matter as you think they should be.

[Marie-Josée Houle]

Thank you so much for the question, Mr. Chair.

My main mechanism for communicating with the minister is through the reports I submit to him and which must be put in front of Parliament. It's not just the issue of the minister responding, but all of government responding to the recommendations that are put in my reports.

I did see the Prime Minister use the words “housing crisis” not too long ago. I did see the footage of you, Mr. Aitchison, calling on the Minister of Housing on this question, so I'm aware.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Okay.

During the committee's recent study on the national housing strategy, the chief economist at Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation made this following statement. He said:

The reality in Canada is that about 95% of the rental market is provided by the private sector, so financialization is something that exists by design in our rental market. In an environment of a growing population and more demand for more rental units, we need more financialization in order to get more supply to meet the needs of a growing population.

I'm wondering what you think of that statement. Do you agree with that?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

I certainly don't agree with that.

In fact, the presentation that I gave, as well as the work of the research, shows exactly the opposite, that financialization of housing is what is causing the housing crisis, and if we don't get behind it right now, as soon as possible and take measures to curb it, we are not going to be able to recover from this housing crisis.

This is an opportunity to address that. Housing is a human right, so, yes, financialization of housing is nothing new in Canada, but it is growing. You'll have an opportunity to ask the researchers more detailed questions around this.

That being said, when we're talking about supply, we need to talk about the right kind of supply, and financialized housing is not the right kind of supply. We need to have supply that is there to support the human right to housing—that's the progressive realization of it—by creating not just affordability but all the other six tenets of the definitions of the human right to housing, including habitability and security of tenure.

Financialization of housing is threatening all of those things.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

What would you say is the biggest gap in our housing spectrum right now? We are seeing it as a continuum, and people move through that spectrum. What would you see as the biggest stumbling block, or blockage, for people moving through that housing spectrum right now?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

As I mentioned at the last meeting, I'm seeing encampments across this country. People are in encampments for a variety of reasons, but affordability is certainly one of them. Housing is not being targeted to those who need it the most in this country.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Would you agree with the statement that when people are unable to move through that spectrum...? For example, people have their first apartment and then try to move into the next, but they get stuck in that spot where they are.

Would you agree with the statement that people who get hurt the most are the most vulnerable in our society?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

I'm really glad the member has asked this question, because it is stuck in an archaic system of thinking that housing is a ladder in this country. It is archaic, because housing does not help people move. This is not what people want, and it is not sustainable. This way of thinking is a violation of human rights, as well, or leads to the violation of the human right to housing.

This ladder way of thinking doesn't take into account that not everyone is going to aim to spend 30% of their income on housing. Some people have other needs. Maybe they're trying to pay off their education. Housing needs to be a choice. Whether it's home ownership or rental, that needs to happen.

I also want to throw this at all the members present today. When there is something you want that's for sale, you're going to grab it. You're not thinking, “Well, I'm going to leave it behind even though this is what I really want, because someone else, who can't afford to pay more, will need it.” We don't consume that way, so that is not how the market of housing should be treated either, but we're making those assumptions, and that is the big flaw in the modelling.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Unfortunately, you and I are both out of time, but I'd love to talk to you more about that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Aitchison and Madam Houle.

Mr. Van Bynen, you have five minutes.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Unfortunately, I keep getting reminded of an indigenous phrase which says that it takes you as long to walk out of the forest as it does to walk into the forest. I'm hoping we can find some ways to reverse that trend and find a way to run out of the forest to resolve this issue.

You have many suggestions, and many of them are under provincial jurisdiction. How exactly are you advocating to the provincial level for changes you want to see? Are you meeting with provincial and municipal leaders?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

I am meeting with provincial leaders. In fact, I met with the provincial housing minister of B.C. last week when I was in Vancouver. I'm seeing many examples of some really great initiatives happening.

However, we're here to speak about financialization of housing and the progressive realization. We have all of these amazing researchers who have commissioned some work, and I would really like to keep us focused on what the federal government can do, because there are solutions out there for us today.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

The series of research reports on the financialization of housing—what we're undertaking now—was designed in part to support you in developing legislative or policy recommendations for the government.

Have you started developing these recommendations? Can you give us a sense of what these recommendations will look like? When do you expect to have them available?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

Thank you so much for the question.

I do not have a policy shop. I'm an advocate, but we submit recommendations to the minister, which are put in front of the House of Commons. My latest report was submitted to the minister a few weeks ago and is expected to be put in front of the House of Commons within the next few weeks, so it will be available for all, including his response.

It is up to the government to direct their bureaucracies to get going on those recommendations.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

What recommended actions do you see being as the highest priority or the most urgent in terms of the recommendations you have developed thus far?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

The key recommendation is to first of all recognize that financialization is systemic and pervasive, and it will require a coordinated approach to curb the harm that it's causing. It will require immediate actions, followed by longer-term, ongoing strategies.

There is the tracking of ownership of financialized housing stock and measuring the impacts of financialization. There is better monitoring of tenants' rights before, during and after the acquisition of property to prevent evictions, human rights violations and harassment. There is expanding the supply of non-market housing and developing mechanisms to definancialize ownership. Suspend state subsidies and support to financialized landlords. Bring in tax reforms that make financialization less profitable, especially for REITs, and regulate the involvement of pension funds that invest in financialization.

All of that is in the purview of the federal government.