Human Resources Committee on Sept. 27th, 2023

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister.

I'm glad we received a bit of a history lesson today, because I'd like to jump in on that point. I was a municipal councillor back in 2008-09 when the recession struck. Our affordable housing wait-list in Hamilton at that point in time was, I think, about 3,600 to 3,700 individuals. Those people who sat on the affordable housing wait-list were waiting anywhere from three to five years to have their name called and to receive a unit.

After the recession and over the years that followed, that wait-list jumped to almost 6,200 to 6,300 names. I think if you asked us in 2015 whether there was a housing crisis, the answer would have been yes.

I should note that under the previous government, municipalities begged and pleaded for a national housing strategy. We noticed the jump—the doubling—of people on the affordable housing wait-list, and we asked, begged and pleaded with the federal government for resources to assist seniors, single moms and families who couldn't find a way to make it work.

I wasn't here, Minister, but your government responded. I'm hoping you can relay to the committee the importance of having a strategy. There seems to have been a narrative in the House recently and over the last number of months bemoaning the fact that we have a national housing strategy, trying to poke holes in it, when we didn't have one with the previous government when they ignored municipalities.

Why is it important to have a national housing strategy and why is it important to work with municipalities?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you for the question. I think you added some useful context around the previous questions about whether or not we were living in a crisis in 2015.

In Hamilton, I have no reason to distrust that it is exactly the case you've just made. In my own community, things were very different. However, now in my small town—with a population of about 10,000 people—we're seeing homelessness for the first time. It's being driven by a number of different factors, not exclusively federal government policy, by the way, although I think federal government policy has an important role to play. This is where we see a sea change between the approach that we're taking and the one the previous Conservative government took, and I should, to be fair, point to the cuts that were made in the early 1990s under a Liberal government that actually discontinued investment in affordable housing for low-income Canadians.

Cities can't do this on their own. There are things for which they are uniquely responsible—zoning practices, permitting processes and infrastructure prioritization—but when we saw a lack of investment not only in housing but also in infrastructure for many years, with the exception of the post-financial crisis injection of cash for the building Canada fund, we saw cities that were not prepared to grow when they started to experience population growth. Population growth is a major part of the economic strategy of the Atlantic provinces, for example.

Without the investments we've been making in infrastructure, which have laid the track for community growth, we would be in a much worse position than we are today.

From my perspective, it's essential to work with municipalities so we can incentivize them to overcome the barriers that are uniquely within municipal jurisdiction, but also so we can partner from a funding point of view to build housing-enabling infrastructure.

To your question about having a strategy, if you have a problem and you don't have a strategy, you're never going to solve it. As the problem changes, my view is that the strategy too needs to change and that's why you've seen a new series of measures aimed at a wider array of homes than were uniquely the focus of the national housing strategy that was launched in 2017.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Minister.

My next question would be around the provinces. You've addressed the issue of working with municipalities. We have a different approach from on the other side of the table, which is demonizing local mayors and municipalities for not building supply. They've taken the stick approach. We're taking the carrot approach in terms of incentivizing municipalities.

The same needs to happen with provinces. I'm in the unenviable position of being in a province that has a Conservative government that has no affordable housing programs. I point to, as the shining stars in the country, British Columbia and Quebec, where all of the stars have aligned and the municipalities are working with the province in consultation and co-operation with the federal government, but in Ontario that's not the case.

How do we create that healthy tension with the provinces, specifically Ontario, in areas where they're more interested in making people rich, rather than finding ways to help people who are on an affordable housing wait-list for a number of years?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

One of the things that you'll appreciate in my position is that I want to build healthy relationships with governments of different partisan affiliations in every region of the country.

To a province, my sense is that everyone recognizes there's a need for more housing. There are different viewpoints about what kinds of housing we need, how we're going to build it and whether we should embrace urban sprawl or whether we should focus on intensification where services already exist.

My view, particularly in medium- and larger-sized cities, is that intensification is absolutely the way to go, particularly when you have a generation of young people who want to live in urban environments, who want to give to the community and who have professional opportunities that are unparalleled in other parts of the country.

My view is that we need to make sure we're identifying shared priorities, regardless of which province. I can tell you there are projects that we both want to get behind. I actually think we would benefit from improving the coordination of our programs, both for housing and infrastructure, with the project selection and the timing of the release of capital into the market for these different kinds of projects.

My approach is to pick up the phone, to call people, to meet them in person where it warrants, and to actually talk through some of the challenges we're facing, because my sense is that, if you can agree on the nature of the problem, sometimes you'll realize you can pursue solutions in parallel and sometimes you can pursue a common solution together. Depending on the partner, depending on the province, I think there are wins for us to put on the table in every region of the country.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Mr. Trudel, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for joining us.

Mr. Trudeau didn't do you any favours by appointing you Minister of Housing. How did you react? We're experiencing a brutal housing crisis. It's extremely serious. You've said that we need to build 5 million housing units, while the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, CMHC, estimates that we'll need to build 3.5 million units by 2030. That's a monumental undertaking. In Quebec alone, 1.1 million units need to be built. The private sector is expected to build 500,000 in Quebec, though forecasts for this year have now dropped. So it will likely be a little less than that, but to achieve a certain balance, we'd need to build 600,000 housing units in addition to what the private sector is going to build. It's a massive undertaking.

I've just returned from visiting one end of Quebec to the other. I went to Gaspésie, Abitibi and Lac-Saint-Jean, and I witnessed tremendous distress. One of the stated goals of the National Housing Strategy in 2017 was to reduce chronic homelessness by 50%. It was in writing. Since then, the number of homeless people in Quebec has doubled. According to the latest count, from October 2022, there are 10,000 visible homeless people in Quebec, and everyone involved told me that this is likely just the tip of the iceberg. I was told that housing needs were so urgent that people were no longer finding their way through this massive strategy, which is not having its intended effect.

Let's talk in concrete terms. A year and a half ago, we passed a budget that included a $4 billion fund to accelerate housing construction. It's a funny name, by the way, because after a year and a half, this fund to accelerate housing construction hasn't built a single house. It's quite peculiar. You are currently negotiating with the Quebec government. There are $900 million at stake and, in Quebec City, I'm told that the Quebec government could add another $900 million. That's quite significant. It would mean a total investment of $1.8 billion.

In Quebec City, I was also told that the provincial government would like these negotiations to focus on real housing construction rather than zoning-related standards or improvements. I'm not saying those aren't important, but I'm told that the Quebec government's priority is to move quickly on housing construction to take concrete action.

What is the status of these negotiations with the Quebec government on this $900 million, Mr. Fraser?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you for the question.

You said the Prime Minister didn't do me any favours by appointing me Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities. In fact, he gave me the opportunity to make a difference on an important issue for our country, and I have high hopes for the Housing Accelerator Fund.

That said, it's important to understand the purpose of the fund. It's not just about building a house here and a unit there. In fact, its purpose is to change the way housing is built in communities. It's also about changing regulations in cities and municipalities. In Quebec, municipalities can't deal directly with the federal government. That's okay, because I have a good working partner in Ms. Duranceau, the Quebec minister responsible for housing. In fact, we've had discussions to come to an agreement that would ensure funds are used to increase the number of housing units in Quebec.

To speed up the process, at the same time, we'll identify projects and infrastructure that will enable more house—

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Minister, right now, who's holding things up?

You say you're negotiating, but housing falls under provincial jurisdiction. So housing construction is Quebec's responsibility, and it's up to Quebec to arrive at an agreement with its cities. If Ottawa were to hand over the $900 million cheque right now, Quebec would be in a position to build housing over the next year.

Why are you getting in the way of the Quebec government? Quebec is used to doing this work. Cities are used to doing this work. Technical resource groups are used to doing this work. Non-profit housing organizations are used to doing this work.

Ottawa's fiscal capacity is enormous. This $900 million is sleeping in the coffers, while people in Quebec are sleeping outside, even as winter approaches.

That $900 million is sitting in Ottawa, useless. Why?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

There's no problem, the situation is normal.

We began by allocating a fund of $4 billion, a very large sum, to make sure the program works.

In my speech today, I talked about a number of things, including Canada's need to change the way cities build housing.

If we just put money into the problem, we're never going to solve it. We have to change the system. If we work with the provincial government in Quebec to identify shared priorities on how we can implement systemic change, we can actually solve this problem.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

All the people on the ground in Quebec have told me that they can no longer navigate the various levels of government. People just want housing built. The cities set bylaws, the provinces institute programs and the federal government adds to them.

Everyone thinks Ottawa should just send cheques to Quebec, so the money can flow quickly and housing can be built. We don't understand why Ottawa is standing in Quebec's way. Everyone agrees on that.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I don't view partnering with provinces on shared priorities to be interference. We're contributing hundreds of millions of dollars to different jurisdictions. In Quebec, it's close to $1 billion, as you've indicated.

Both Canada and Quebec want to see communities build more homes. Both Canada and Quebec want to see communities speed up the process to approve homes. Both Canada and Quebec want to see homes across a range, for middle-class families and vulnerable families. These are the ordinary conversations after we establish a program in our budgetary process in order to land on an agreement for what we're trying to achieve with the money. Pumping in money alone, without a systems change built into the programs, is not going to solve the problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Trudel.

Ms. Kwan, I believe your sound is fine. You have six minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you to the minister for his opening comments and for acknowledging the fact that the housing crisis is caused by successive Liberal and Conservative governments walking away from building social housing and co-op housing. In fact, it was the Conservatives that cancelled the co-op housing program in 1992. The Liberal government cancelled the national affordable housing program in 1993.

For 30 years, successive Liberal and Conservative governments relied on market forces to provide the housing Canadians needed. It's been, frankly, a massive failure. We have record homelessness, rents have skyrocketed, young people are priced out of the market and we have the housing crisis we are faced with today.

As the minister indicated, in 2017 the Prime Minister announced the national housing strategy with much fanfare—I actually remember this—and even proclaimed that adequate housing is a basic human right. However, the Liberal government's slow walk to roll out the funds resorted to double-counting to inflate the numbers. It was slow to renew the operating agreements for non-profits and co-ops, resulting in more loss of subsidized social and co-op housing units.

The auditor has issued damning reports on the situation. I won't belabour all of those points because it's all on the public record.

The minister admitted that we have a deficit in social housing stock. Canada's social housing stock is amongst the lowest in the G7 countries, at a mere 3.5%. We need to actually enhance and increase the social housing and co-op housing stock. Currently, in the national housing strategy, the development of social housing is pegged at 16,000 units per year. That's not going to do it. It's not going to meet the requirement and the housing needs that Canadians have.

My first question to the minister is this. Will he commit to increasing the social housing stock, where rent is no more than 30% of total income, to at least two million, so that we actually have a fighting chance to meaningfully address the housing crisis?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much.

Before I do my best to answer the question, I think one of the key points that you made, Ms. Kwan, during your remarks was to trace back to decisions that were made in 1993. It just kind of struck me because in 1993, I was eight years old. This problem didn't emerge overnight. It emerged over the course of my entire life. It's not going to be solved overnight. Although I will agree that we need to do more to continue to build out more non-market homes in Canada, I think we have to acknowledge that it is going to take place over a number of years.

I will commit to introducing reforms that will increase the share of non-market homes in Canada. The exact definition you're using is something that I think I owe my team and, frankly, Canadians a little more policy work on to assure myself that I have the definition that will ensure that the greatest number of people have a roof over their heads at a price they can afford, regardless of their level of income. I believe the social cost of homelessness is extraordinarily high, and I think it's incumbent upon governments to do more to build out that stock.

I'm happy to give the floor back to you to make sure we're focused on your priorities in this exchange.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I was a community legal advocate 30 years ago. That is the reason I entered into electoral politics. It was when the federal Liberal government cancelled the national affordable housing program. Successive Liberal and Conservative governments caused this problem.

Now you're at the helm. We have a chance, hopefully, to fix the problem. Instead of tinkering around the edges, we need bold action. We know that actually building social housing and co-op housing is effective and it works. It will house people in need. I look forward to the minister announcing the increase in the development of social housing and co-op housing.

The NDP has called for an acquisition fund for the non-profit sector. Will that be part of the mix?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I don't have an announcement to share regarding an acquisition fund at committee today. It's one of the options I've learned of since I was appointed to this position that are trying to address the unique issue—in particular the loss of organic affordable housing, if I can use that phraseology.

There are rental units that exist in the market today at prices people can afford, but we are losing them quickly. An acquisition fund is not necessarily the only way to make sure we're protecting the loss of that affordable housing, or even acquiring properties that we expand or build affordable housing on.

I'm trying to identify what I view to be the best option to make sure we're delivering the largest number of homes at the most cost-effective price.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

To be sure, the acquisition fund is not the only way, but it's certainly one way and something the NDP has called for. Another way is to stop the loss and erosion of existing low-cost rental apartments. The way to deal with that erosion is to ban those financializing and profiteering landlords from purchasing and sweeping up the low-cost units and then jacking up the rent, renovicting and demovicting people. That's another option. As Steve Pomeroy has indicated, for every one unit built of affordable housing, you lose 15. You need to build and you need to stop the erosion. That's what the NDP is calling for.

The other thing I want to raise with the minister is this—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Kwan, your time is up, so could you quickly phrase your question?

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'll be very quick.

On the housing benefit, in the 2022 budget, the NDP forced the government to deliver a one-time $500 housing benefit to help low-income Canadians, and with the rollout, the Liberals acted unilaterally to change the eligibility criteria, leaving out the most vulnerable and lowest-income people.

How did the Liberal government reach this decision to limit the benefit, and what are the ministers going to do to fix it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have time for a short answer.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

The CEO of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Company is going to chime in on this response.

[Romy Bowers, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation]

Thank you very much for the question.

This is a question that's been raised at this table before. There was no change in the definition of the benefit. I think there was some misunderstanding with how it was communicated, but it was not our intention to cut out certain segments of the population. We did have to draw some lines in the sand in terms of determining who was eligible. We'd be very happy to provide the definitions that were used and to have further discussions on this based on that submission.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Mr. Scheer, go ahead for five minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Unbelievable.