Human Resources Committee on Sept. 27th, 2023

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I wanted to also ask about the CMHC's mandate.

Again, going back to my topic of systemic problems, the FCM has called for a “review” of CMHC's mandate. Will you take on that review of CMHC's mandate?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'm happy to review on an ongoing basis. The only details I would quibble with are what specifically we are going to be reviewing and for what purpose.

To the extent that we want to continue to encourage a focus on increasing supply and growing the non-market supply, I think that's important. My own view is that we need to continue to use the organization with a primary focus of building more homes for Canadians who need them at prices they can actually afford, but the details as to what level of formality or what that process would look like would be something that I would want to have a proper opportunity to consider before making a public commitment.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

I'll take a minute, then, to suggest a couple.

One is that Ms. Bowers—it's good to have Ms. Bowers here again today—made this comment to this committee before: “for many decades CMHC was not involved in the delivery of affordable housing, and we have lost connections with many institutions in the non-profit sector”. I think this is an area that needs to be addressed. How do you remake those connections with the non-profit sector?

The other systemic problem that we see with CMHC is, again, that lack of data collection, that lack of measuring tools and that lack of understanding.

That's the couple that I would put out.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Very quickly, before I turn the floor over to Ms. Bowers, look, I agree with you. Due to a lack of investment by different governments of different parties and persuasions for decades, there was a lot of muscle memory that was lost, and I think building those relationships for continuity and efficiency is important.

I'll turn to Ms. Bowers, please.

[Romy Bowers]

Thank you for that question.

I've had the privilege of speaking to this committee before about the decades during which CMHC was not engaged in the delivery of affordable housing. With the launch of the national housing strategy in 2017, we've had to re-establish our connection with the non-profit sector. It's early years. There are many learnings, but in the subsequent years, I think you've seen a strengthening of the relationship.

Can we do better? Absolutely. Are we committed to supporting the non-profit sector to deliver non-market housing? Certainly. We always welcome feedback that would strengthen our capabilities.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Could I have the last 10 seconds or so?

Minister, will you commit today to take on a review of at least this portion of the CMHC's mandate?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Before I commit to a formal review, I will commit to having a specific meeting with you about what a review would look like. Then I'll want advice on what shape that kind of exercise would take, but let's have that conversation privately at the soonest opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Zarrillo.

Mr. Scheer, you have five minutes.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

“CMHC” stands for “Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation”. Is that the federal agency responsible for housing?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Yes. There's a more specific mandate, but that's the Crown corporation that we deal with on our housing programs.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Does that agency, that corporation, report to you directly? Yes...? Okay.

You've talked about the core mandate. I'm reading from the CMHC's website. It says, “we are driven by one goal: housing affordability for all.”

Housing starts are down. Were you expecting housing starts to fall?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

When I saw an increase in interest rates and the cost of supplies, it made sense to me from a basic economic point of view. I think home construction has been on a positive trend over the last number of years, but—

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Is that a yes?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

In light of recent changes, yes, but it would depend on when you asked me that question because—

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Housing starts are down. They were down this year again. In fact, CMHC's own report predicts—this is from its 2023 “Housing Market Outlook” report—that, “We also expect housing starts to decline in 2023 and remain well below recent levels posted in the 2020-2022 period over the forecast period.”

They were down over those periods, and they're going to be down in the future.

Does that sound like the CMHC is achieving its goal of affordability for all?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

There's a piece of clarity that will provide context. That's based on the policy track that existed at the time when that would have been generated, which was fairly recently. For example, the expansion in the Canada mortgage fund or the GST was not factored in. I want to change that policy track.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

It was a simple question. Do you think that CMHC is hitting its goal of making housing affordable?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I think we need to do much more, including having CMHC do much more.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Okay.

Can you tell Canadians why officials at CMHC received almost $27 million in bonuses? They have one job, which is making housing affordable for all. That's their goal on their website. Those are their own words.

They have resources to do that. They collect premiums off the backs of mortgage payers. These are people who cannot afford to put the entire amount down for a house, or even 20% down, so have to pay CMHC fees. Those premiums are paid into the CMHC fund. That management team paid themselves 27 million dollars' worth of bonuses over the last few years.

Do you think the officials at CMHC achieved their goals and deserved those bonuses?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I can completely understand why, when people hear a figure like that, they'd start asking questions about the appropriateness.

From my point of view, it's really very important that elected officials don't interfere with the compensation of individual public servants—

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

I'm sorry. This isn't about compensation.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

What's most important is that we need to have a process that's independent and that is designed—

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

This is not about the independence of the compensation. This is about bonuses.

Bonuses in the federal civil service are awarded to individuals who exceed expectations. There was $27 million paid out to CMHC officials during a time when housing starts went down, when mortgage costs doubled, when rents doubled and when the dream of home ownership was obliterated out of the reach of Canadians hoping to move out of their homes or start their lives.

During that time, the officials at CMHC were paid $27 million by your government. Why?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

One thing I think it is really important to understand is that there is a process whereby there's an independent assessment of whether people meet the standard that's expected of them. I would say that I don't attribute the changes in the financial landscape to any public servant at CMHC—

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

It's their role.

I have a quick question. I'm sorry. I don't have a lot of time here, and you're not providing clear answers.

Who appoints the CEO of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation?