Evidence of meeting #79 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was going.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Romy Bowers  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Kelly Gillis  Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)) Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Committee members, it is 4:30 p.m. The clerk has advised me that we have quorum, so I'll call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 79 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting for a briefing with the Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities.

Welcome, Minister. We'll more formally welcome you a little later.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room, and they're attending by Zoom as well.

I would like to make a few comments before we begin.

You have the option of choosing to speak in the official language of your choice.

Madam Chabot, if there is a breakdown in the translation, please get my attention. We'll suspend while it's being corrected.

Those in the room please raise your hand if you want to get my attention. Those on camera use the “raise hand” icon. As well, no screenshots are allowed to be taken when the meeting is in progress. I would also ask you to please speak slowly and keep your cellphones away from the microphone, that will avoid popping sounds and will be for the benefit of the translators as well.

With that, as I indicated, we have some members joining us. Mr. Morrice, who was acting chair for a while yesterday is joining us. As well, we have Mr. Scheer, and Mr. Trudel is joining Madam Chabot and Madam Zarrillo.

I will advise that we do have a communications problem with Ms. Kwan online. The quality is not sufficient to translate at this time. It is being worked on.

Before we begin, I'll just say I'm going to conduct the meeting in two one-hour sessions. We'll have a health break after the first hour. For a couple of minutes, we'll suspend, and then I will go back to the normal rotation we have on the speaking order for the first hour. We'll revert to it again for the second hour, just so we're clear.

I would like to welcome our witness this afternoon, Minister Fraser.

Minister Fraser, welcome to HUMA. The floor is yours for your opening statement.

4:35 p.m.

Central Nova Nova Scotia

Liberal

Sean Fraser LiberalMinister of Housing

Mr. Chair, before you start the clock, how much time do I have?

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Five minutes was almost unanimously agreed to by the committee, but I'm sure if you go over a second or two we won't have an uprising.

September 27th, 2023 / 4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

With it being five minutes, I'll jump right in.

Colleagues, if we're going to solve Canada's national housing crisis, we have to understand the constituent causes of the circumstances we find ourselves in and advance specific measures that are tailored to overcome the very specific obstacles that are posing challenges to home construction in particular.

One of the things I want to acknowledge before I get into some of the challenges and potential solutions to those problems is the scale of what we're dealing with. We're talking about needing to build homes and to build them by the millions. We have about 16.5 million homes in this country. We need to build more than five million more if we're going to restore the level of affordability that existed in Canada 20 years ago.

The way this is playing out is having very real impacts on real people in real communities across the country. We're talking about students who are not able to find a place near where they're going to school. We're talking about young professionals, sometimes who are in a two-income household, who can't afford to get into the market. We're talking about seniors who can't find an apartment when they're looking to downsize in a community where their grandkids are being raised. Of course, we're dealing with a significant number of people who have no place to call home.

My view is that we, as a society, should aim to do better. It's going to require the federal government, working with provincial governments, municipalities, the private sector and the non-profit sector advocates, and of course parliamentarians, to advance solutions that are going to have a meaningful impact. But we won't have a meaningful impact if we just come up with random ideas and throw them at the wall. We need to have targeted measures that are going to maximize the output when it comes to building more homes for Canadians at prices they can actually afford.

The first obstacle that I see is, really, the need to change the financial equation for builders. As a result of the increased cost of supplies and materials, labour, interest rates, the cost of land in Canada and a number of other factors, it's really hard for people to say yes to projects, even where they have the workforce, even where they've already had a project approved.

We have been advancing measures you will have seen recently. The removal of the GST on apartment construction in Canada is resulting in more homes going ahead that otherwise would not have. You may have seen the changes to the Canada mortgage bonds program, which is going to help free up low-cost financing. You will have seen programs that have existed as part of the national housing strategy, such as the rental construction financing initiative that makes money available at a lower price for the people who are looking at the equation, so they can say, “Yes, I can go ahead now.”

There are other things we can do as well, and I look forward to the advice of members of this committee, but it's not just the financial equation. We need to change the way that cities build homes, or in some instances don't build homes. We need to make sure that we're speeding up permitting processes. We need to make sure that cities are investing in housing-enabling infrastructure. We need to make sure that they are zoning in a way that makes it legal to build the kinds of homes that are going to help solve the housing crisis.

When it comes to changing the way cities build homes, we have introduced the housing accelerator fund, a $4-billion fund that is starting to show very serious promise and is already changing the rules cities have in place in places like London.

Peter, I know we were visiting your community a few weeks ago. More recently, Calgary has made a decision explicitly that relied, at least in part, on an exchange of letters we have had regarding the housing accelerator fund.

Of course, we continue to invest in infrastructure that allows more homes to be built, such as water and wastewater, such as public transit funding and the like, so that we make sure we're building not just places to store people but real communities and homes for Canadians.

As we continue to invest in housing, we can't forget that there are a lot of people who need homes that exist outside of the market. This was really the foundation for the national housing strategy: to build more affordable housing for low-income families. After 30 years of lack of investment by both Liberal and Conservative governments, I should say, we are hundreds of thousands of units behind where we need to be if we're actually going to make sure people who cannot afford a place in the market still have a roof over their heads. There's a social cost to not having the ecosystem exist as it should, and we need to work together to overcome it.

Even if we get the policy landscape right on these other areas, we are going to run into a bottleneck at a certain point in time when it comes to the productive capacity of the Canadian industry to actually build the homes that we need. We can overcome this by investing in training programs, as we have in partnership with unions over the last number of years. We can continue to invest in programs like the sectoral workforce solutions fund, but we can't just rely on training the existing Canadian workforce.

We also need to continue to embrace immigration as a strategy to bring in the skilled workers who we need. We had previously made changes to the express entry system through the category-based selection model to bring in more people as permanent residents who have the skills that are necessary to build homes, but even if we get all of those people building, we have to change the way that they build homes.

We don't build cars the way we did a century ago. We're more efficient. We build them in factories now. We need to be looking at innovative ways to build housing more productively by investing in factory-built homes. We need to be embracing technologies, including modular housing, panelization, mass timber and 3-D printing, if we're actually going to change the way that we build homes so we can do it on a much larger scale than we are today.

We need to continue to support labour mobility so workers that may be available in one jurisdiction in Canada can offer their skills to housing projects in other jurisdictions.

There are improvements that I think we need to make on the coordination of programs as well between federal, provincial and municipal programs, and I think in all honesty we can probably improve the way that we administer programs. It might require us to take on a little more risk by times to speed up the process for the projects that we want to support.

Before I conclude there are a few other categories that I'm happy to dig into should time permit, but we need to continue to respond to the changing nature of emergencies that put people in situations where they have no place to go.

My own community was impacted severely by Hurricane Fiona last year and people were displaced. We saw it again during wildfires, not just in Nova Scotia but in communities across the country as a result of severe weather events that are driven by climate change. We need to continue to support communities through our programs that deal with severe homelessness problems, and we need as well to make sure that we're supporting emergency shelters in communities that are facing undue pressures.

I don't want to ignore the need to also address the financialization issues that I know the finance committee has been studying, and I look very much forward to reviewing the report they are generating. However, there are measures we have implemented around changes to the tax regime on short-term rentals such as Airbnbs, the ability of foreign buyers to purchase and own homes, and taxation of people who are non-residents with non-occupied homes.

Finally, we can't ignore that there is a generation of people who feel like they have been left out. If we build all the homes that we can build as quickly as we can, we're still going to have a significant number of people who find themselves with the inability to save up for a down payment to get into the market in the first place.

My sense is that, if we tackle each of these problems with everything we have, in collaboration with every level of government, the private sector and the non-profit sector, we can make real progress. If we aim for anything short of solving Canada's national housing crisis, I think we will be selling ourselves short. I think Canadians deserve to see us working together to advance measures to solve each of the problems I've outlined for you today.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Mr. Chair, I don't know how close I am to my time. I expect I'm over, but I'm glad to be with you and happy to take questions.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Minister.

I forgot to introduce, with the minister, Ms. Romy Bowers, president and CEO of Canada Mortgage and Housing and Ms. Kelly Gillis, deputy minister, infrastructure and communities.

With that, we'll go directly to questions with Mr. Aitchison for six minutes.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for being here. Thank you for asking to come here for starters—that's great—and thank you for being here for a two-hour session.

I have an easy one to start with. I'll take it easy on you. This one stumped your predecessor.

Do you believe that Canada is in a housing crisis?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

I think I led with a statement saying, “If we're going to solve Canada's...housing crisis”, so yes, I do believe we are living with a housing crisis in this country.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Do you think Canada was facing a housing crisis eight years ago?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

I think a significant number of Canadians were living in a crisis situation because of the lack of housing. Would it have constituted a nationwide crisis? I think that's a matter of subjective opinion.

At the time, I was focused in my own community. We had an enormous supply of housing, but because we've seen a level of growth we couldn't have predicted, we are now facing similar challenges to big cities—even in rural Nova Scotia. It would have been community-dependent for me at the time and individual-dependent at the time.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

I think that's a fair statement. The average rent for a one-bedroom apartment eight years ago was about $973. Today, I'm sure you know.... Do you know what it is today?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

It would depend on the jurisdiction, certainly.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Do you know the average across Canada?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

I don't have the specific average. I'm sure that in 30 seconds, we could find it.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

It's double. We've talked about this before, of course. It's $1,880.

If it wasn't really a national crisis.... We would define it today as a national crisis, but it wasn't a national crisis eight years ago.

In 2017, the Prime Minister announced his housing plan. He called it life-changing and transformational.

Had it become a crisis by then, would you say?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

It depends on the specific community that you're in. The exact moment that you transition from dealing with real social issues to having a national crisis is a matter of opinion. I think somewhere along the way, the problem has become so much more widespread.

Frankly, it fundamentally changed, in particular as a result of a changing economic landscape in the postpandemic period, which I see has really impacted a much wider array of Canadian families than it would have back in 2015.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

The Prime Minister described his housing plan, at the time, as transformational and life-changing. That was some pretty bold language in 2017. Obviously things were bad enough that he felt we needed a life-changing and transformational plan. He announced initially that it was $40 billion. It eventually crept up to $70 billion.

Was that necessary then?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Yes, certainly it was necessary then. In fact, it was necessary 30 years before. One challenge that we're dealing with is that we're trying to make up for lost time because successive governments of different partisan stripes didn't invest in housing.

We re-entered the space in a way that no government has in my entire life. It was necessary, but we need to continue to do more. As the social and economic landscape in Canada changes, so too must our policy trajectory. My view is that it was essential. I'm very glad we moved forward with the national housing strategy, but I'm not here to tell you that it was enough to solve the problems that we're dealing with today. We have a lot more work to do and I'm thrilled to have the opportunity to do it.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Eight years ago, the average minimum down payment was $22,000. Today the average is—you guessed it—$50,000. It's double.

Do you know what the benchmark price of a house was eight years ago?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

I don't know to the dollar, but I have a sense that I know the point you're about to make.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

It was $452,000. In case you were wondering, today it's $750,000. That is with this housing plan that was supposed to be life-changing. That's maybe not the change I think the Prime Minister was hoping for at the time.

I guess it begs the question that, when eight years ago your government took office, there were challenges and problems in the housing space. They may have been unique to certain parts of the country. They were more acute in some areas than in others. A couple of years later, it was determined that we needed a life-changing plan. The change that we have today is that house prices have doubled. Rents have doubled. Vacancy rates hover around 1% or lower across most of the country, and homelessness is on the rise.

Now we have a new minister. You've come out swinging. Would you describe the things you're announcing today, the new programs we're hearing your government talk about—you had a housing retreat on the east coast and another little session in London, and you've announced that you're going to do some really big things—as life-changing, transformational housing plans?

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Sir, when you say what I'm announcing today, what are you referring to?

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

I mean the programs you've been announcing: the HST, the—

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

You mean in the last number of weeks.

I think they're important. They are going to fundamentally change the ability of the housing sector to produce more homes. I don't think the measures we've announced today in and of themselves will solve the crisis, but without them, I think it would be impossible.

If you'll indulge me for 30 seconds, Mr. Aitchison, the problems you've outlined in your questions are different from those we were discussing back in 2015 to 2017 when we were building the national housing strategy. The motivation behind the national housing strategy was to make up for three decades of governments not investing in affordable housing for low-income families. That's why you've seen the co-investment fund, the rental construction financing initiative and more recently the rapid housing initiative targeting those housing developments that are designed to put a roof over the heads of some of the most vulnerable people in the country.

What we're seeing now is a far more widespread challenge. It's impacting middle-class families very seriously. The change in policy track you would have seen since my appointment as minister is the decided expansion of the range of homes that we're trying to support through new policies, including adding to the supply overall, so there will be a greater ability for middle-class families to find a place to live as we continue to support the development of projects that will keep a roof over the heads of low-income, vulnerable Canadians.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you.

We now move to Mr. Chad Collins for six minutes.