Human Resources Committee on Sept. 27th, 2023

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Yes, and the story of your province is not too different from that of mine and of Atlantic Canada, with the population growth that we've seen, including when a number of Canadians moved to the east coast during the pandemic. What is ironic is that part of the reason you're seeing surpluses for governments that were on very shaky fiscal ground before the pandemic is that home values have increased and provincial governments have collected their share of HST to a much larger degree and now have money in the kitty.

To credit my home province's government, after they reported a $116-million surplus, they recently announced that they too would be piggybacking on the GST measure we have discussed by waiving the provincial share of tax. That demonstrates the kind of work we need to do together if we're going to leverage the maximum number of homes out of every public dollar spent. No one level of government can do this alone. We're talking about millions and millions of homes, and we need the people who build them to be part of it too.

We need municipalities to change the way they do permitting for homes to speed up the process of permitting them and make it legal to build the homes that people need by building more densely. We need provincial governments to get on board by supporting programs to build more housing with direct financial support, and we need to better coordinate the different programs we have so we can work together.

My hope is that we continue to experience the benefits of population growth on the east coast and that we can collaborate across levels of government to make sure our communities are ready to successfully absorb the people who want to move there.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thanks for that.

I want to hone in on cities and my city of Saint John, obviously, in my riding of Saint John—Rothesay. I'm seeing municipalities becoming—and it's a good thing—seized with the problem. They understand that they have to be part of the solution, but there are so many cities that just don't have the capacity. They don't have the department and they don't have the people, the staff and the permitting people—what have you—to accelerate this issue.

Could you talk about the accelerator fund and its importance to cities like my city of Saint John?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Yes, and keep in mind that the fund isn't just designed to pay for the new permitting system that's implemented. It's a fund that contributes to infrastructure or housing projects and the systems that can be implemented, but part of the conditions to access the fund is that you're going to change the way you get homes built.

I think, for example, of the conversation we had with the city of your colleague to your right just a few weeks ago. We had a really healthy proposal from the City of London that was going to lead to their making certain changes and building more homes where people could access services and the like.

We sent them a response indicating other ways in which we thought they could build homes more quickly, including allowing people to build four units as of right on the properties they may own in the city and including zoning more densely, in particular around places such as post-secondary education institutions and transit developments. The mayor, Josh Morgan, whom I should give credit to, responded in the best possible way, saying, “We want to do this.” As a result, we're investing $74 million in the city, and that's going to add thousands of homes that otherwise would not have been built.

Other cities across the country can change the way they build homes, change the process to permit them and legalize housing. They can make it legal to build the homes that will actually help to solve the housing crisis. If we actually change the rules and have a federal incentive to drive municipal change, we can make a heck of a difference.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

That will conclude the first round.

I'm going to suspend for two minutes for a health break. When we come back, we will begin the second round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll now resume with the second hour. We'll lead with Ms. Ferreri for six minutes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Obviously we have limited time, so we'll be as fast and furious as we can to get as much information as we can.

Thank you, Minister. You quoted in 2021 that your Liberal government was able to “lock in long-term interest rates.” Can you tell the committee how much interest rates have increased by since 2021 in percentage, please?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

It would depend from exactly where in 2021, but it would have gone from record lows—a fraction of a per cent—to now in excess of 5%.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Yes, it's 4.75%, and if we look at what it was, which is what a lot of people put into their mortgage. Now they're up for renewal, which is what we see in terms of people collapsing on their ability to refinance their mortgages and that is creating homelessness.

Do you know what amount was allocated to the Reaching Home program, which was targeted to reduce homelessness?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Yes. It's a $4-billion fund.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

There was $1.36 billion spent in three years specifically on Reaching Home—and I'm going to get to why I'm asking about that—which is targeted at reducing homelessness. A colleague of mine has already brought this up, but I think it's important for people who are watching at home. They may not know what's happening in terms of policy. How did we get to where we are? Tent cities have taken over across this country.

There was an Auditor General's report, and it had some pretty scathing remarks. Can you share with the committee—or would you rather that I share with the committee—what the Auditor General's report stated about what were the Liberals' investments and targets to reduce homelessness?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Go ahead. I have a feeling that you're going to one way or the other. I'm happy to hear it.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

There was $4.5 billion spent on housing and reducing homelessness, and there's not even the knowledge if the funding is making a difference. You said in your opening statement, Minister, that you have to have measured targets. If you are not measuring something, how do you know it's working? Where I'm going with this is that chronic homelessness has increased by how much since 2016...?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Look, I don't have the specific figure in front of me.

Romy, do you have the data point she's looking for, or Kelly?

[Kelly Gillis, Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada]

We do know that chronic homelessness has actually stayed relatively the same at about 30,000, but homelessness has increased. We know that in 2021, for example, 94,000 people used emergency shelters, and then there is unsheltered homelessness or people in encampments, and that is very visible across the country. It has increased by about 100%. We know that those have been important changes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you. I don't mean to interrupt—if people are watching at home—but because we have very limited time, we try to get in as much as we can.

There was a 2016 housing strategy, and we talked about this in committee too. It's all fine and good to have a housing strategy, and I think your intentions seem good, Minister, but there seems to be a disconnect between the Prime Minister who runs this country and what you are saying here in this committee. On behalf of all Canadians and people who are living in tents, especially in Halifax where the rate just went up 500%, I will say that this is not reaching measured targets.

You got upset with Andrew Scheer, my colleague, because you thought he was playing games. It's not a game. Houses are not being built. I hear your empathy. I hear your intention and I hear you trying to say you're going to do things differently, but nothing has happened. I want to point to you in terms of where these operational dollars are going. This is why we talk about having to build homes and not bureaucracy, which is what the Liberal government has done.

There's a youth emergency shelter in my riding. There are 19 family units. These are parents with children and 39 youth on the by-name list in Peterborough, and this is an under-representation. Reaching Home is the only federal homelessness funding they know of. It provides funding for transitional housing amongst other things. They receive funding to cover the cost of one prevention worker. That's where operational dollars are going. When you go downtown in Peterborough, when you go downtown in Halifax and in Ottawa and there are record numbers of people living in tents, that's why. It's because of bureaucracy.

They have a question. I'm here, elected on behalf of Peterborough—Kawartha, and they want to know. I would ask the finance minister how she accounts for the costs associated with homelessness. The costs of shelter plus emergency services are higher than those of providing transitional or permanent affordable housing, so why is she not offering funding to the organizations that are already offering the solution to expand their housing programs? Marcel Lebrun, who runs 12 Neighbours, also asks why they're not getting these funds into their hands quickly.

These are life-changing programs and I hear you, but honestly we don't believe you and that is the problem that is on the ground.

I will leave it with you, Minister, to answer that, because what you're saying and what you're doing are not adding up. We saw that today in the House of Commons, with the Prime Minister, who said he is sorry but they're not going to change anything they're doing.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, I agree with my colleague on the scale of the challenge, and I think it's important that we all acknowledge that, due to a range of factors, homelessness is a problem and a growing problem in particular parts of the country as well.

One of the things that I find difficult to accept, given her intervention, is this. I have a hard time accepting it at face value when she and her colleagues voted against doubling funding for homelessness.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Mr. Chair, because it is my time, I would stand by voting against that, because do you know what's happened in this country? People can't afford to live, and we voted against those programs, and it didn't matter because they passed anyway.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, are we respecting the convention that Mr. Scheer indicated earlier was important, about the witness having equal time to answer the question?

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

It hasn't made a difference.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Okay, Mr. Minister, please give us a short answer.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

One of the things I think we have to ask ourselves is, first, what more can we do? When I look at the comparative advantages of the plan that we are building and the one that the Conservatives recently released, I would point out that there is no homelessness funding in the Conservative plan. There is no affordable housing funding in the Conservative plan.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

It's not our plan. It's the government's job to do this.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, I've been interrupted again. I believe the time is mine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

That concludes your time, Ms. Ferreri.

We'll now move to Mr. Collins for five minutes, and, please, stick to the subject matter.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

If the minister wants to give an answer on that last point, I'd be interested in hearing it.