Human Resources Committee on Oct. 30th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madam Zarrillo.

Just to be clear to the members, until the meeting adjourns at 1:00, we'll follow the routine motion speaking order. That means it's five minutes, five minutes, two and half minutes and two and a half minutes.

Mr. Aitchison, you have five minutes, please.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to follow up quickly on the multi-unit rentals for a moment.

The MLI Select program is specifically used by multi-unit builders to insure their mortgages. In the spring, CMHC increased that rate by almost 200%. Can you tell me how many applications were received after that announcement and before the new rate went into affect?

[Romy Bowers]

In the month of June, which was the peak, we had 5,000 applications in the queue.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

How big is the backlog? How many applications have you actually been able to review?

[Romy Bowers]

Just to give you a sense, our applications went from 400 a month to 800, and sometimes over a thousand. We've been able to double our underwriting staff, so we've reduced the backlog from 4,000 to 2,000 and we'll be able to clear the backlog by the end of the year.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

How many underwriting staff do you have now?

[Romy Bowers]

We doubled it. We had about 50, so we increased it by 30.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

How many of those projects are no longer viable because of the new rate?

[Romy Bowers]

Is that in terms of the premium?

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Yes.

[Romy Bowers]

First of all, I'd like to clarify that we increased the premium. We have to run this business on a commercial basis. We had not increased premiums since 2017. There were changes to accounting rules that we have to follow, as well as regulatory capital requirements set by OSFI, so we had to change our pricing so that we achieved minimum commercial returns. That's the reason for the change.

Before we increased the premium, we did extensive consultations with developers, who confirmed to us that of course they didn't want an increase in the premium. However, in terms of impacting the viability of the project, they did not think the premium increase would impact viability and that in fact it was the other product features that were important.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thanks for that.

I'd like to move on to Ms. Gillis.

On May 11, 2021, the Government of Canada announced $10.4 billion for four different public transit projects in Toronto. I'm sure you're completely familiar with them: $2.2 billion for the Scarborough subway extension, $1.8 billion for the Eglinton Crosstown West extension, $2.24 billion for the Yonge North subway extension and $4 billion towards the new Ontario Line.

Can you tell me how many units have been started or constructed so far on or around the stations on the Scarborough extension line?

[Kelly Gillis]

I can look into it with Ontario. We are in active negotiations with Ontario and Toronto. We don't have signed contribution agreements with them just yet on those subway lines. There was a term sheet announced that you're referring to. As they're progressing and as there's further development, we're looking at working with them on contribution agreements and commitments regarding affordable housing.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

That announcement in May 2021 isn't formalized in any agreement yet.

[Kelly Gillis]

It's a term sheet that was agreed to and not a formal contribution agreement.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Okay. As part of the review of that contribution agreement, there are a number of conditions for this money. One of those conditions includes “building affordable housing near transit oriented development as is feasible, in line with City of Toronto objectives, and report publicly on them”.

Is that correct?

[Kelly Gillis]

Correct.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Can you give me an example of a situation in which building housing near transit-oriented development not may not be feasible?

[Kelly Gillis]

I believe it's the extent to which it would be feasible. In looking at the type of development, it's how much it would be feasible within that particular development to make it financially viable to proceed. That is the discussion between Ontario and Toronto that is active at this time.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Does Infrastructure Canada have a target or a base number? For example, let's take the Scarborough subway extension. Do you have a sense of how many units you'd like to see for your contribution of $2.2 billion?

[Kelly Gillis]

When we look at our previous programming versus our new programming in our permanent public transit, yes, we will. We're actually consulting on the methodology right now and on what the requirements are. When we used this particular program, it was part of our Investing in Canada program, as well as bridge financing between the Investing in Canada program—

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Just quickly, I'm running out of time. Can you—

[Kelly Gillis]

It's a discussion right now. We did not have conditions regarding affordable housing in our previous programming. It's a new element that we've brought to bear, and that's where there are active discussions on what would be possible, given the already advanced development of those particular lines.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Aitchison. We'll probably get to another round with you.

We will go to Mr. Fragiskatos or Mr. Collins.

Mr. Collins, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Among the most pressing needs right now in our housing crisis are those living in encampments and how we deal with that very vulnerable population of people who have deep needs in terms addiction support, mental health services and a whole host of other issues from life problems that they're experiencing.

My question would be around Reaching Home, which has done incredible work, as Ms. Gillis pointed out earlier in response to my colleague's question about how many people we've helped enter that program.

I know that many of the service providers in Hamilton, specifically Indwell and others, are providing tremendous transitional housing supports for that very vulnerable population. They're pulling them out of encampments and getting them into transitional housing with supports to ensure that when we find an affordable place for them to live—permanent housing—they're not back in an encampment within a few short weeks or months.

I couple that with some of the programs that we offer under the national housing strategy. The rapid housing initiative is one that caters to a very vulnerable population. The co-investment fund provides that same support to the sector.

I find that there are multiple applications for organizations like Indwell, Mission Services and Wesley. I have a whole host of them in Hamilton that serve the people coming out of encampments, and they're forced to apply through different streams in order to make a project work.

Are there discussions that occur between CMHC and the ministry in terms of how we can streamline those supports so that small organizations—non-profits—are not forced to fill out multiple applications when they're trying to serve some of our most vulnerable Canadians and when they're trying to do that in a very timely way?