Evidence of meeting #88 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Prof. Fenwick McKelvey
I'm going to give a Canadian example, the BlackBerry. I actually remember being a worker and my bosses having a BlackBerry and walking around and how cool they were. Really, I think the shift was to where there's an expectation of being connected and a change in the kind of dynamic of the work and the pace of the work, which is what I was getting at in my comments. I also think there's been a shift in some ways, because I often feel as though our discussions of the Internet imagine us sitting in front of a computer and being thoughtful, whereas so much of what we turn to is a mobile environment.
I'm thinking about, say, the impacts of artificial intelligence and something like Google's new camera and how it allows you to delete people from pictures. The debates about what and how much you should be able to do with that are a good reminder about the way in which mobile technology and mobile phones have had a really important impact on the workforce. That has been studied in Canada.
Conservative
Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON
Mr. McKelvey, further to your points, the Internet and certainly the BlackBerry are two examples. I think they're both great examples. Was there a similar level of concern at the dawn of those technologies about privacy rights, for example, compared to what we're discussing now with AI?
Prof. Fenwick McKelvey
I was just thinking back about that. When we were talking about the early days of the dot-com boom, and stuff like that, we weren't talking about the same magnitude or influence of companies. If anything, we've learned, and I think we can.... Partially, what I'm here for is that I'm trying to be more conscious about how those technologies have been rolled out in a more thoughtful way.
When the Internet was coming about, I think there was this idea that it was connectivity and it was going to bridge digital divides, and some of those privacy concerns fell by the wayside.
What has really become more prominent, at least with mobile technology and the ways mobile phones are really part of a fairly elaborate ad tracking and surveillance network, is that those concerns have become more prominent. Where we are now is that I hope we have learned from our debates and from the challenges we have now about platform governance and know that, when I'm talking about a procurement hack with open AI, to me, it's that type of strategy we've seen companies do time and time again. I hope we're better and quicker at raising concerns about privacy and concerns about users' data than we were in the past.
I think that's something I'd give back at least to the BlackBerry. It was a cool gimmick, but now I have to check my email all the time because I've been trained to do it, and I regret, in some way, that I didn't think about that sooner.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Mr. Aitchison.
Next we'll go to Mr. Van Bynen for five minutes.
November 8th, 2023 / 5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Tony Van Bynen Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Perhaps I'm starting to reflect on my age, but building on the transformation of technology that Mr. Aitchison referenced, I think about Netflix and how that has eliminated video stores. I think about Apple Music and how that has eliminated record stores and tapes. I think about how Uber has transformed the taxi business. I think about Zoom as opposed to a phone call. The technology has changed consumer behaviours and consumer demands, so it will have a very dramatic impact, I think, on the labour force.
My first question is for Mr. Frank. I've often been concerned that regulatory bodies regulate through the rear-view mirror as opposed to through the windshield, which is where we should be focusing our attention. That draws the dilemma of what we can predict, with a reasonable degree of certainty, and what we cannot predict.
Professor, Department of Informatics and Networked Systems, University of Pittsburgh, As an Individual
That's a very difficult question of predicting how emergent technologies will look in the future. Of course, if I was very good at this, maybe I would be playing the stocks, instead of being here talking with all of you.
It's a bit of a mystery. You can look towards recent shifts, recent dynamics, to try to predict what will come next. I think in terms of regulating, in an area where technology is so new and we're discovering new capabilities and applications—it seems like every couple of weeks, something new and exciting is highlighted—having voices from industry and from researchers as part of the regulatory conversation would be a good way to do that.
I would recommend doing that in a way that allows those folks who are experts to share their views in a protected way so that there's a public-facing and also a private way for them to communicate with legislators. That would give you the best opportunity to understand what's happening next and to attempt to be ahead of it.
Liberal
Tony Van Bynen Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
You recommended the development of a decision framework given the fundamental uncertainty of being able to predict technological change. What considerations or principles should be part of that framework?
Professor, Department of Informatics and Networked Systems, University of Pittsburgh, As an Individual
I think having expert opinions from the bodies that are developing and deploying platforms will be essential. On the other hand, having folks who are informed, based purely on the empirics of how those tools are being used, which is sometimes out of the control of the developers, out of the control of the companies, is equally important.
In my view, it's very difficult to get that type of data, but there are some options that might be helpful in seeing how workers are changing their use of technology in real time and also in seeing how employers are changing their demands around technology in real time. This would be a departure from what I have seen from official government statistics about the workforce.
Liberal
Tony Van Bynen Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Like the United States, Canada is a very diverse country. Would you see a significant difference between the impact on workforces in large urban areas as compared with smaller towns or smaller communities? What would be the factors to consider as that rolls out?
Professor, Department of Informatics and Networked Systems, University of Pittsburgh, As an Individual
If we focus on generative AI, then I expect that there will be a lot of positive implications for the workers currently residing in cities. There will be a challenge to make sure that some of that economic benefit trickles down to workers in rural areas. This is because a lot of the work for tech companies or the work with data—the work that would be involved in innovating generative AI technologies but also benefiting from the tools you can build with these AI tools—is done by workers who tend to be in cities.
The access to data and computing and these AI services also requires a lot of infrastructure. For example, access to high-speed internet is, of course, abundant in cities. It's better and better in rural communities, but it is not great everywhere. This is just one basic way to see that, even if the brightest minds were living in the most rural communities, there could still be infrastructural barriers in their way.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Mr. Van Bynen.
Ms. Chabot, you have two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
I really wish I had five minutes' speaking time, Mr. Chair.
My next question is a short one and it's for Mr. McKelvey.
In your opening remarks, you gave the example of call centres. Personally, I am in contact with many unions, and I have to say that when it comes to telecommunications, it's pretty appalling. I wasn't aware of some of the current realities. We don't need to look any further than Bell, Videotron or Telus; call centres are being relocated around the globe. That's causing a fairness issue for reports and working conditions.
What difficulties will generative AI add to all that?
Prof. Fenwick McKelvey
I'll say that my expertise has been historically in the telecommunications sector. When looking at discussions of artificial intelligence, there has been a real turn towards automation. I thought there would be more debate, but in my review of the trade literature, there was a focus on automation, and automation in all parts. I think automation in the call centre with chatbots is a really immediate part of what's already taking place.
I think partially it's important to look at the voices from below and the voices that are working and that have the lived impact of these AI systems on their day-to-day workplace. I think that was an important part of focusing on the call centre. For me, at least, that was the job of my future.
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Let's hope the future is one of quality.
Mr. Frank, in your presentation, you not only spoke about challenges and skills, but also about struggling students. I feel it's important to understand whether artificial intelligence is going to be an asset or a risk, particularly for struggling students. As we know, we will need to count on humans to support these students in terms of their skills, abilities and struggles.
How will AI affect these students?
Professor, Department of Informatics and Networked Systems, University of Pittsburgh, As an Individual
Sure. That's a wonderful question.
The same type of volume of research about AI and its implications for skills in the workforce hasn't been carried out for the mechanisms by which workers get skills. Education would be one of the major mechanisms by which people get skills before entering the workforce, but I think AI is a tool that will really help educate students today.
I'll give you a simple example. I'm a professor. Right now I have to field every email from every student when they have questions that need clarification from me. You could imagine, with some of the clarifications that I or my teaching assistant provide, maybe having an AI tool available to them instantly, in real time, at any hour of the day, could help them get an understanding. If there's still confusion, then they could submit a question to me or their TA.
The other thing we see, at least in the few studies I've seen that are actually random controlled trials, where some workers have access to generative AI compared to those who do not, is that generative AI's biggest effect is in bringing up non-expert performance to the level of expert performance. If this observation holds in a variety of cases, what it could mean in the classroom is that underperforming students are able to reach the levels of high-performing students with access to these tools. That could be a great dynamic or great result that makes everyone reach the same type of bar in higher education.
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
I'd really like to continue this discussion, but I only have 15 seconds left. I don't think I can make use of them.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
We'll get back to you.
We have Ms. Zarrillo for two and a half minutes, please.
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you.
I am going to follow up on this topic or vein with Mr. Frank. We've talked for decades about intellectual property and how the intellectual property belongs to the company. It doesn't necessarily belong to the worker. It belongs to the company. We're now having conversations about cognitive property. A lot of the data that's already captured by large organizations came from someone's ideas, their education, their thoughts and their opinions, and it's now being monetized by someone else.
I'm very interested in how we protect workers' cognitive property, especially now, in situations where we're starting to build a lot of that cognitive property into AI tools. Do you have some thoughts on how we can protect workers, Mr. Frank, when it comes to their opinions, education, skills, knowledge and talents?
Professor, Department of Informatics and Networked Systems, University of Pittsburgh, As an Individual
Sure. I just want to make sure I understand your question, though. Do you mean protecting the IP of workers who help to build these AI algorithms or the IP of the folks who generated data—and who may or may not be employed at the company—that was used to train the AI algorithm?
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
It's the first one.
I'm not necessarily seeing it as algorithms because they're just doing their jobs. They're answering phone calls or they're just doing their job the way they always did, but it's now being captured in a way such that it can answer in generative AI later. It's just basically taking people's thoughts, opinions, intellectual property and cognitive property and monetizing it by the corporations that do that. How do we protect that for workers?
Professor, Department of Informatics and Networked Systems, University of Pittsburgh, As an Individual
All right. I understand better.
I would say that this is not new to AI, this dynamic where the ideas, the thoughts and the perspectives of workers are getting coded into AI, just as the perspectives of programmers who build social media websites get encoded into the programming and the code behind the website.
I would say that this maybe isn't a new topic. I think that having workers who are thinking about these issues—for example, representation and how we account for different viewpoints—and having people with those ideas embedded into the engineering side of these tools is really powerful for exactly that reason.
Another thought that comes to mind is that the generative AI tools we're seeing now that are making big waves, things like ChatGPT and Midjourney for image generations, these are not things that I could produce here with my laptop or even with the computers I have at my lab at the university. These really are things that require collaboration between smart people who can write very effective code and huge amounts of resources on the computing side and the training side of these AIs. I don't think that something like ChatGPT would have emerged without a collaboration between the smart people who do the coding and the resources that the company can put behind a project like that.