Human Resources Committee on Nov. 27th, 2023

[Julie Despaties]

As a parent, if I may speak a bit about my own experience, I was on the receiving end of a lot of the struggles that my kids were experiencing. Stress is toxic, so when you are confronted with having to go back to work, your mental health can be impacted. Post-adoption depression is a reality. Even though you've been wanting to grow your family through adoption, that doesn't mean there are no struggles, so we need to make sure we're supporting our families.

If they return to work too quickly, often they end up having to pull back from working. Yesterday afternoon we had a community gathering of parents here in Ottawa, and I met with a few new adoptive parents. Actually, both of them were single moms. One had just returned to work, but she told me that she had to take six months out of pocket as a single mom: She had to draw from her own savings to really make sure she was going to be the mom that her child needed.

If we could, as parents, I promise you that we would want to go back to work, because it's nice to be stimulated outside of the house, but it's also important that we do the things we do so that our children can be strong, because once they're securely attached and they know they can trust us, the sky is the limit. As much as our abilities are, they can really navigate this world differently.

I just want to add something else. I just spoke to another lady who is on her parental leave currently. Again, she's a single mom and she can't afford to defer the time to return to work, and she's really hoping that this will be embedded before she has to go back to work.

It's really important for parents that the stress of work not be competing with the stress of transitioning and adopting children into their homes.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Julie, because you did talk a little bit about your own experience, I also want to ask you what impact the 15 fewer weeks had on you and on your family's adoption journey, if you feel comfortable with that.

[Julie Despaties]

Absolutely. I just never went back to work. We had, as I mentioned earlier, a sibling group of three older children, all together, and I called them my triplets. They were all talking back and all different ages. When they came to our home, I'd receive calls from the school daily, and I had to put supports in place. Even 10 years ago, support was hard to line up. Today, post-COVID, it's actually getting harder, and there are long lists.

You don't know the children who will be coming into your home, so it takes a lot of time and energy, spending days on the phone, searching and leveraging all of your connections so you can get your kids the right supports they need.

For me, I signed on the dotted line for life, so I was working around the clock, around my own clock, to be available anytime to drop in, because I truly don't believe that any employer, as good a worker and as committed a person as I am, could ever have afforded me the time I needed to go and pick up my kids and be there for them.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

With the remaining seconds I have, I want to thank you, Julie, for all the work you've done, and for being willing to be vulnerable in public about some of the struggles—and also joys—you've had in adopting your sibling group.

[Julie Despaties]

Thank you, Rosemary. It's a pleasure to speak about something I'm so passionate about. Ultimately, a family needs enough time to be able to thrive together.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mrs. Falk.

Mr. Coteau, go ahead for six minutes.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

It's nice to see you again, Julie. I think the last time I saw you was in 2021, when you came to see me in my office, or we met virtually then. I'm aware of the work the organization has done over the years and the work we did back at the Ontario legislature when I was the minister for children and youth services—the new benefits we put in place back in 2016.

I want to say thank you for all the work everyone is doing to support children in general.

Contrary to what we heard the Conservatives say at the beginning, my whole life has been about supporting young people. This government, I think, has done the most work of any government to support young people—the dental benefits, the child benefit and child care for $10 a day. These are big programs for kids. I want to remind the Conservatives, who are critical of the pathway to get here, that they had a decade in government and did nothing on this file. I'm proud to be part of a government that is constantly looking for ways to improve and looking for ways to support children.

My first question is this: What do you think of the proposed changes in the fall economic statement? This is to both witnesses. Is what you saw and read in the actual document aligned with where you want to go?

We can open the floor to anyone, but I'd like to hear both witnesses respond, please.

[Julie Despaties]

Thank you.

First of all, as my former minister and funder, you know how passionate I am about ensuring that all our children are thriving.

I will remain non-partisan here. I will say that to us, what matters is that 15 weeks of time to attach be offered to adoptive parents, kin and customary carers. We need to support families where they need it, so that they can thrive and have enough time to attach, without having external stressors compete with this.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Would the other witness like to comment on the fall economic statement piece that was published and reported on?

[Anne-Marie Morel]

I fully agree with what Ms. Despaties said. And, knowing that they are also entitled to these weeks of benefits, people won't be subjected to the stress of seeing the leave period come to an end. Thanks to these additional 15 weeks, parents would have peace of mind and no longer wonder how they're going to find the money they need to take unpaid leave. As I was saying earlier, there is really a strong consensus among experts on the fact that adoptive parents should stay at home for at least a year with their child. Professionals say this to potential parents during assessments, and they really try to organize their lives accordingly.

As Ms. Despaties put it so well, many adopted children have special needs and may need treatment of various kinds, such as speech therapy, physiotherapy or occupational therapy. These are treatments to which people have access in the private sector, if they aren't available in the public sector. The foregone income of a parent who has to take leave without pay when adopting would no longer be an option to spend time with their children afterwards.

Removing financial stress from the shoulders of parents by giving them a year's leave changes everything. That's what families have been telling us for the past two years.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

The relationship between a parent and a child at that initial stage in a young person's life, as early as possible.... It could be right when they're born; it could be in the first several years.

I remember when I was back at the Ministry of Children and Youth Services and some of the statistics on how, when a child feels safe, when a child is comforted in the right way, when a child feels protected, it changes the trajectory of that child's life and the success that the child finds in life. When you go back to the very basics for raising a child, it's some of the things that we just assume and we take for granted that can have the largest impact in the success of a family and especially that child.

Again, I just want to say thank you for the work you're doing. I know it's been a long road to get to this point, but to me, this is a major win for children in this country and for families.

I just want to say that it took this government to make it happen, and we're going to continue to work and do everything we can to support young people in this country. There's no question that when young people are off on the right pathway, it builds our country economically and socially and allows us to achieve our dreams as a country. I just want to say thank you so much for everything you've done, and I want to say thank you to the entire sector for getting us to this point. It's your hard work that has brought us to this point, no one else's. It's your work. Thank you so much.

I'll end there, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Coteau. Your time is through.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Despaties and Ms. Morel, thank you for coming. We can sense your commitment to families, parents and children alike, in the process.

I would add that it's also a struggle for equity. It's a feminist issue. What we're talking about is the right of women to care for their children equitably and calmly, independently of how the child became a part of the family.

Ms. Morel, you mentioned the RQAP, Quebec's parental insurance plan. We in Quebec take pride in it. It was just recently added to the child care services provided by the network of early childhood centres established over 25 years ago now. I believe it was part of a family policy concept.

How did this argument help you in your struggle to achieve equity within the RQAP in 2021?

[Anne-Marie Morel]

It clearly helped us argue on behalf of children too. The employment insurance system is mainly focused on employees. However, that helped us make people aware of issues that affect children. Indeed, the fact that parents would be able to spend time with their children has an impact on all kinds of other services in society, including the education system and the health system. Earlier, someone mentioned how important a bond of attachment was in making children feel secure. It also has an impact on the ability to learn. For children to be able to function in a school system, they have to have learned to feel secure at home. All of these considerations enabled us to argue our case more convincingly as part of a family-oriented system.

On the other hand, a problem was created by the fact that some people were afraid of discriminating in favour of biological parents over adoptive parents. Their concerns were quickly dispelled because providing more to some parents did not take anything away from protecting pregnant workers or other workers. It was just a matter of having everyone receive benefits for different needs.

The system therefore was a huge step forward for families. Today, we can see the positive repercussions on their children and their work.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

That was going to be my next question.

It's certainly an impressive victory. We would like to see the same outcome federally.

In Quebec, the new rules have been in place for just over two years. Have you noticed any changes since then?

[Anne-Marie Morel]

Among other things, what we've seen is that more parents who adopted an older child were willing to take a full year off work, even if their child was going to school. It enabled them to handle all kinds of other tasks throughout the day. For example, they were able to fetch the child at lunch time, have lunch with them, and then fetch them again at the end of the day. The preparation of the evening meal and all the other parental tasks are done, making them fully available to be with and bond with their child. This has been confirmed by experts. Previously, adoptive parents of an older child were less likely to extend their leave at their own expense, causing an impact on the child's educational success and on the family bond. That's one of the factors that we've seen.

Previously, we used to receive all kinds of calls from desperate parents. We have been getting far fewer now because they no longer have that burden. Nor do they have to feel guilty any more for having to take a young child to child care or to school when they did not feel ready to leave the nest. It's important to understand that to an adopted child, child care, whether in a family setting or in an institution, may look like another host family or another orphanage. The time spent by parents with children to make them understand that this time it's really true, and that it's a permanent family, is critical as time goes by, when children have to make their own way through various institutions.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Ms. Despaties, what would this struggle of yours, which I hope will be successful, change in society?

[Julie Despaties]

I believe it would create stronger families, strengthen our country and enable our children to develop to their full potential. No matter where they happen to be, when children feel that they have a strong bond with an adult and can rely on that adult, there are fewer obstacles and pitfalls.

I'm envious of the many Quebeckers who've been able to take advantage of the new leave system. I hope the rest of Canada will also be able to.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Despaties and Ms. Morel.

It's a matter of political will. We hope that everybody will give consideration to what you've achieved and adopt this proposal.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Mr. Angus, you have six minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for your extraordinary testimony.

Madame Despaties, what is the advance period for a couple who would be adopting? How much advance warning are they given to prepare for this life-changing moment?

[Julie Despaties]

There's not a...how can I say? I'm looking for my words. There's not a trajectory that can say you're going to have two months or three months. You can get a call to be presented with a child, and then a few weeks later, a few days later or a few months later, they will be moving in with you. It really depends on the circumstances, and it changes from experience to experience.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I know. I was surprised. A couple I know were called and told they were going to be adopting. They had to drive 300 kilometres and then they were told it was not on. The trauma for the family really struck me, as well as the preparation, the need to have economic issues in place. They had to upend everything on the chance....

How important is it that we have those economic supports in place for the family?

[Julie Despaties]

I think it's really important for parents to know they have support and that their jobs are not at risk in growing their family. Knowing that they can count on a system that has their backs so that they can help us develop our children is really important.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You told a story of adopting three...were they siblings?