Human Resources Committee on Nov. 29th, 2023

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

When you go through child protection systems, or just children and youth law in various provinces, it's sometimes shocking to see some of the gaps that exist across the country. I remember in Ontario, the age of protection was 16. We raised it to 18, but I was surprised that there was a cut-off at 16 in some cases. We have a lot more work to do.

I know this might be a very hard question to answer, but why do you think laws that are there to protect children....? Why has it taken so long as a society to get to this point, where governments across the country—and I am talking about provincial governments and even municipal bylaws—are moving in this direction in an accelerated way to make these decisions that are good for families?

They're the right types of decisions and may seem obvious to you and to me, but society as a whole is not at that point. What has held us back?

[Cathy Murphy]

Julie and I, our families and supporters, Adopt4Life and the Child and Youth Permanency Council of Canada have been advocating on this one issue for over six years. It should be a non-partisan issue. It was a non-partisan issue.

I think it becomes partisan at times. You asked me honestly, so I am telling you honestly. We can't step through that red tape quickly enough for children and youth and their families. I have never brought forward partisan issues. I advocate in the best interests of children and youth. l always have and I always will.

Perhaps that was what was finally seen from our stories, because they're very honest and very real. I think this is a good-news story for families. At least, saying that we value this relationship and that we value that 15 weeks of attachment leave goes a long way for our families.

Oh, my goodness—there is so much more that they need. It is a value statement.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

It sends a very strong message.

[Cathy Murphy]

It says, “We value you, and we value the work you're doing.”

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Am I done?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have eight seconds—now seven.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I usually don't take my eight seconds, but I'm just going to say thank you again.

[Cathy Murphy]

Thank you.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you for all of the work that you've done.

[Cathy Murphy]

Thank you for the work you've done in the past as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Coteau.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Good afternoon. Ladies, thank you for your testimony. It will be very valuable to us.

I must tell you at the outset that parliamentarians adopted the spirit of the bill at second reading before studying it in committee. The purpose of the bill is to give adoptive parents 15 weeks of employment insurance, the same as biological parents get. Your testimony has helped to illustrate why time is important.

If the bill passes, adoptive mothers could be eligible for 15 weeks of employment insurance, just like biological mothers. Ms. Rottenberg, do you feel that this equity is important?

[Shelley Rottenberg]

As Cathy mentioned, I think it's important to make sure to have equal access for both biological and adoptive parents to form the bond and to really have the chance for the adoptee—whether a baby, a child or older, like an adolescent—to get used to the new environment, whether that's the family or the country. All of those things are very important, regardless of age. I was adopted as a baby, but it's very important at whatever age you are.

I think that was the question.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Yes, that was my question.

As you can see, the government has already made commitments. I don't want to make you play politics, but the Liberal government has committed to changing our employment insurance system in order to completely reform it.

Biological parents are given 15 weeks, and we'd like adoptive parents to get the same thing. We would like equity. Although the government has made a commitment, the reform hasn't happened yet. This bill is therefore an opportunity to correct some discrimination. Perhaps society has evolved enough to make this happen as well.

We also talk about the importance of parental presence in adoption cases. It's also important that parents not have to worry about their job and that they be able to take the time to support these fine individuals, like you, whom they have chosen to adopt. It's a wonderful choice.

Do you think this bill would have made a difference for your parents, Ms. Rottenberg?

[Shelley Rottenberg]

Yes. My mom is a single parent. She adopted me on her own, and she raised me and my younger sister—who's also adopted from China—on her own. There was definitely a lot of hard work that went into that—being a single parent and not having some of the benefits that exist today, the extra 15 weeks especially.

It would make a difference if that were to be put into place. I know that my mom has said very similar things to what Cathy said. She would do it again. In many ways, we've helped her more than she can explain. As much as I am grateful to be part of the family, I know that she's very grateful to have adopted me. I think that so much good can come out of adoption.

The government should support that and set it up for success so that adoptees can succeed and adoptive parents can succeed—the whole family unit. If the right supports exist in terms of employment benefits—to have that leave—that just further allows for success of the whole family, all of the individuals involved. It allows for that bond to form and for them to grow up, have those secure attachments and have strong bonds and relationships with not only family members but other individuals as well. It really is so multi-faceted.

Thank you.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Murphy, the bill provides for 15 weeks of benefits, and we hope that it will pass. You can count on the support of our political party. However, some say that rather than starting as soon as the child or youth arrives, the benefit period should start a little earlier, to let parents prepare the physical location to welcome them.

Do you have an opinion on that?

[Cathy Murphy]

Good afternoon, Ms. Chabot.

It's good to see you.

Yes, we would hope that there would be flexibility within this legislation so that a family could make that decision for themselves. For example, when our daughter joined our family in China, we lived in China with her for two and half weeks before we returned to Canada, and we started the leave on the day she came into our care even though we weren't back in Canada yet.

For a family who would like to have time to prepare, definitely that could be part of this legislation, but there are some families who will have no time to prepare. I think flexibility within the legislation is important to meet individual family needs.

Thank you.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Mr. Angus, you have six minutes, please.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Rottenberg and Ms. Murphy.

I think we are pretty much in agreement on the importance of this, but having you as witnesses to our committee allows us to put on the parliamentary record the broader issues that we often don't get a chance to discuss.

In my 19 years of political life, I've never gotten the opportunity to quote my favourite quote of all, from Dostoevsky in The Brothers Karamazov: “I am sorry I can say nothing to console you, for love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing.... Love in dreams is greedy for immediate action, rapidly performed and in the sight of all.... But active love is labor and fortitude”.

I want to start with that because of the question of the enormous undertaking of adoption.

Let's begin, Ms. Murphy. You've said that you adopted internationally. I have people in my life who were adopted from very precarious situations internationally and who blossomed, but we also know that there are serious questions raised about international adoption: white saviourism, loss of culture, loss of identity and people who think they want to be parents and then aren't.

How do you frame this extraordinary effort of bringing a child from a completely different culture into our country? How do we make sure that it works and that it will be for the long term and for the benefit of all?

[Cathy Murphy]

First of all, we've adopted both internationally and through the public child welfare system.

When you adopt internationally, you are making an active decision to adopt a child. I will use a quote. It's when we learn and know better, we do better. I have definitely learned along the way, as has my husband and as have our children.

Culture was always something that I knew we needed to be actively participating in. It was always something that was a part of my daughter's life. She always had mentors who were from her country. Our family went to language classes. We've been back to China several times with her. She is now 27 and has been back on her own. I wish I could tell you that every family who adopts internationally does that. They don't. Not every family has the resources to do that.

It should be harder for us as adoptive parents, quite frankly, if it's going to be easier for our kids. I think that's the best way to summarize it.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Ms. Rottenberg, what is your experience and what lessons could you offer?

[Shelley Rottenberg]

I think that in adopting from a different country there's a lot more work that does need to be done to overcome those barriers. There may be a difference sometimes in language and culture, and just in everything, even ethnicity and race and the kinds of experiences that the child might go through, which the parents might not be able to relate to, to understand and to prepare them for.

I know that when I was adopted, I don't think there were as many resources or maybe training. Especially online now, there are so many things that are available, just even in learning from the experiences of previous generations who've been through some things. I do think it's getting better, and there's so much opportunity to continue investing in those resources.

I know that now a lot of resources are adoptee-led. There are adoptees who grow up and speak about their experiences and adoptive parents who are willing and able to learn and listen. That's going to have great positive ripple effects on younger generations of adoptees. It's comforting to know that this is the direction we're moving in.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Murphy, you're the chairperson of the Child and Youth Permanency Council of Canada. You mentioned the 30,000 who are in child welfare.

I represent the region of Treaty 9, and child welfare is a very dark word in our region. We have lost so many beautiful children to a system in which it didn't seem like those children mattered.

I think of Courtney Scott, who was 16 years old. She was taken with her sister from Fort Albany and died in a fire in a house in Orléans, 2,000 kilometres from her family. We lost our child advocate in Ontario. Doug Ford fired Irwin Elman. We are very concerned in our region about children being taken out.

You have talked about kinship and customary care. How do you see that we make sure that the children who have to be taken from their parents, maybe because of drugs, violence or other problems, are still able to be cared for in the kind of loving, cultural support that they are entitled to and that our society must insist on?

[Cathy Murphy]

First families are important. I was part, with our son, of one of the first open adoptions in Ontario. As I said, he's now 32. The first family is very important as long as safety issues can be addressed.

When we look at indigenous culture, we need to look at self-governance. I think that the child welfare system, for indigenous culture, is the next residential school of our time. I am disgusted by what I have seen in the child welfare system.

At the Child and Youth Permanency Council of Canada, we have an indigenous advisory board, and there are youth on that board. They definitely direct us, and it should be those voices that are directing us.