Human Resources Committee on Nov. 29th, 2023

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

I would say that the Highway of Tears, the prison system and everything else that we see broken goes back to children who were put in that system, children who did not get the family support and then aged out without support. If we can address that, we can transform lives.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

Ms. Ferreri, you have five minutes, please.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much to our witnesses. It's a very emotional topic.

I can't help but think as a mom that it is literally the exact same story. I didn't adopt my children, but it's about showing up for your kids when they go through their ebbs and flows and they push you away: “Hey, lady” and “You're the worst mom.” You go through that as a mother, as a parent. Showing up for your kids is tough. It's really tough. You spoke to me a lot there, Cathy, and it's very emotional. I can feel in the room that essence.

I'm so grateful that my colleague Rosemary has brought forth this legislation. I want to get into the nuts and bolts of it.

I think that data is really critical when we look at legislation, because the issue is emotional, but I also think that the data tells the story of investment.

I want you to, if you can, Cathy.... Please, can I call you Cathy, Ms. Murphy?

[Cathy Murphy]

Of course.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thirty thousand children, is that the stat you gave on children who are waiting in the child welfare system, the foster system?

[Cathy Murphy]

They're older, over the age of 10.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

They're over the age of 10, but only 1,700 a year are adopted?

[Cathy Murphy]

That's correct.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

That's a pretty staggering number.

[Cathy Murphy]

It is.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Then, from that number who are not adopted, what are the statistics on what becomes of those children?

[Cathy Murphy]

The statistics on aging out are not great by any stretch. I alluded to some of those statistics around homelessness. The Child and Youth Permanency Council of Canada did an aging out report with WAGE for four years. We did a national report, and all of the numbers are there. Irwin Elman has also been an incredible advocate with us and continues to advocate, even though he no longer has an official role.

I think we really need to look at what we're doing in this country and how we are supporting our most vulnerable. If our children and youth age out, the outcomes are not pretty. You can go to downtown Ottawa. Those are the children and youth that you're seeing on the street. The mental health...are there. Unhoused youth are there. It's not pretty.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

It's a reality, and you only solve a problem when you acknowledge the truth of the problem. This is a long-time issue, but I think we've come a long way in how we talk about adoption. I'm thinking about the forced adoptions many women went through in my mother's time, when 16-year-old women were sent to a home and forced to give their babies up for adoption, never to talk about it again. There is the trauma of that mother living her life...and that child, who never knows who she is.

There is a very big discussion here, but let's go back to the basics of this legislation, which seems so small in the grand scheme of things but so significant. It's the little things. It's step by step. This would provide an extra 15 weeks, which has never been considered.

On top of this legislation changing how long parents can attach to their children, do you think it also has value in sending a message that adoptive and intended parents share equity in parenting? Do you think there's a value in that part of the legislation?

[Cathy Murphy]

Yes, I definitely do. I think all families should be treated equally in Canada. I think it sends a very clear message.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you.

Shelley, your testimony was very powerful. I have friends with stories very similar to yours. I love how you eloquently spoke about the sadness and awe you feel over what you endured as an infant.

Could you elaborate more on what your mom might like to share, or what she thinks about this legislation?

[Shelley Rottenberg]

I'm thinking of all the things she went through—those extra hurdles she had to jump and the lack of resources or benefits. She's very supportive of the fact they exist now, or could, in the future. I talked to her earlier today, because she knows I'm doing this.

She said it's so important, especially in our circumstances, or with international or transracial adoptions. It's important because of all the changes you go through. You need that time to adjust. On her end, it's having that time off work and not having to worry about how she is going to feed her child or baby. It's making sure she has a good life and is set up for success—knowing that's been taken care of. It's being able to focus on the parenting aspects of providing love, support and nurturing. It's just having the time, literally, to be together and to be able to watch all of those firsts. She missed out on other firsts, because I only joined her when I was eight months old.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Time is certainly the most valuable currency we have. There's no doubt about it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Ferreri.

Mr. Van Bynen, you have five minutes.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate your candour and the way you're sharing very deeply held feelings that are so important to children.

I don't know how it was determined that 15 weeks is an appropriate length of time for the attachment benefit. What we've heard today and previously is that it's much more challenging when you're adopting a child, compared with having a surrogate child or your own child.

Do you think a 15-week attachment benefit is sufficient, given the added challenges?

[Cathy Murphy]

I would ask for the moon, but today we are here advocating for the 15-week attachment leave. I think it's significant.

It shows what we value as a country. We're saying that all families, regardless of how they're created, are valued and should be honoured and upheld. That's huge for our children, youth and families. We have here today some of the incredible youth with whom I've had the pleasure of working. It's very important that you tell them their voices matter in this. Yes, it's important.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Okay.

Shelley, would you like to add to that?

[Shelley Rottenberg]

I'll add that I agree. It is very important, whether you adopt a child or have biological children, to have the same amount of time for benefits. I think that sends a message. We'll know the government views it the same way, in terms of the family unit and how families are formed, whether it's adoptive parents, biological parents or even adoptees with biological children.

Oftentimes, adopted children can feel very othered in society, which jokes that being adopted means you're different and don't fit in with your family. There are all those levels. On the government level, I think viewing it as more equitable by passing this is a very good statement.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

The other concern I had was that I don't understand the rationale that providing the benefit would be applicable on the week the child arrives. How important is it to have flexibility to apply for the benefit prior to the child's arrival, and how much time would be beneficial?

[Cathy Murphy]

I believe in thinking outside the box. That's why I've always worked for NGOs.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

As opposed to government...?