Human Resources Committee on Nov. 29th, 2023

[Carolyn McLeod]

Sure.

That's a huge issue. We mention it in the report. We tried to give the government an estimate of how much it will cost them to provide these attachment benefits, so we tried to look at how many kids have actually been placed in care. Could we estimate how many would be placed yearly? That was extremely difficult to do, because we couldn't find accurate data about how many children are placed with families in different provinces.

Doing anything in this area without good data is very difficult.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

With your indulgence, Mr. Chair, I have 10 seconds.

Thank you very much, Ms. Eisner, for your presentation today.

If there's one thing you want this committee to take away after we've looked at the bill and this entire issue, what would it be?

[Cassaundra Eisner]

I think the most important thing to take away is that adoptive children are just like biological children. We still need that time. I think it's important that adoptive parents have at least the same amount of time as biological parents to take care of their child and attach.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to both witnesses, particularly Ms. McLeod. Both testimonies are going to be helpful to us, but in hers, Ms. McLeod raised exactly the question posed by the bill: equity between birth parents and adoptive parents.

In my previous life, before I got into politics, I was a trade unionist. At the time, the members we represented were already saying that labour laws had to be changed to achieve equity. So people have been thinking about this for a long time.

Why do you think there were separate regimes? It's understandable that there were two separate regimes at the time. How long have you been advocating for equity?

[Carolyn McLeod]

I do think equity is very important here. I think that adding these benefits signals that we, as others have said, value these families and that we're committed to treating them equally.

Why would adding these benefits do that? It recognizes, as I said in my summary, that there are unique needs associated with adoption. Equity doesn't necessarily involve treating everyone the same. It involves recognizing that groups can have unique needs, and we need to recognize the needs associated with adoptive families, kinship and customary care. I think this sort of bill does that.

I think that justice is part of the issue here. Children's well-being is a core part of the issue, but justice and how we treat families are very important. We argue in the report—

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt.

Quebec has made the same claim. As you know, in Quebec, the Quebec Parental Insurance Plan is part of a family policy; equity was achieved two years ago when the law was changed.

You're speaking to elected officials, to parliamentarians. Even though this bill is before us, there has already been a commitment to correct the Employment Insurance Act to ensure equity by providing for this 15‑week period. To convince everyone that this is the right time and that the bill must move forward fairly quickly, what would be your main arguments in favour of adoptive parents?

[Carolyn McLeod]

As I mentioned, I think that if we stick with what we have now, where adoptive parents only qualify for parental benefits and don't qualify for those added maternity benefits and get less leave, we're not recognizing the unique challenges involved with adoption.

We're really not valuing and understanding that way of forming families, which I think is really significant, because there's already a normalization of using assisted reproduction, for example, when people can't have children the old-fashioned way. There's already a kind of sense that adoption is second best to biological reproduction.

For the government to signal that's not true is really important. I think equality for families formed in that way is central, and I don't think we really respect those families equally by giving them less parental leave.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

This is my last question related to a clause or an amendment.

Some are suggesting that the 15‑week leave start when the child or youth comes into the parents' care. Others say that the 15 weeks could begin before the child or youth arrives, to prepare for their arrival and set up their living space.

I'd like to know what you think about this. Is it beneficial for the leave to start before the child being taken in arrives, or is it preferable to grant it from the moment the child arrives to foster a stronger bond?

[Carolyn McLeod]

I think there should be more flexibility around that point. That was the one thing I highlighted the most in the bill. It does conflict with our report, where we recommend more flexibility and that parents should be able to start the leave before the expected date of arrival of the child to prepare for their arrival. It should be left up to the parents' judgment to decide how much time they need to do that.

Getting the supports in place that they'll need to care for the child.... They'll have some understanding of what those supports are—or they should.

I think it's crucial to allow more flexibility there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mr. Angus, go ahead for six minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

I have three daughters. Two are in their thirties and one is in her twenties. When it's a bad day for one of my daughters, it's a super bad day for my wife, and it's a really bad day for me until I find a way to fix something. I guess that's the power of attachment. When my daughters were born at home, the midwife said that, for the next 10 days, the mother and the baby were to stay in that bed. They're not on the phone and all the other stuff in the world just has to stop. That was attachment.

I never really thought much about how attachment happens with a child or with a baby. We're talking about something here that is more intentional. It's something that has to be constructed, in a sense.

Ms. Eisner, you're an expert on this in a way that I'll never be. What does attachment mean to you? It's also a two-way street. Isn't that right?

How do you see it as someone who came into...? You were 11 at the time. How would you explain it to another young person who would be going into that situation? What is attachment and how do we make it work?

[Cassaundra Eisner]

I think the best way to explain attachment to someone else, especially someone who is going into a very similar situation, is to say that it's normal to have difficulty at first. In creating a relationship with someone new—in my situation, it was my parents and siblings—it's very difficult to wrap your head around something that big and to understand, “Holy crap, I have a family now”.

Being able to just have time to process that is important. Part of the attachment, of course, is processing the idea of “Oh my gosh, someone wants me”. It's also about being able to build that relationship and realize that these people care about you. It's building that trust, being able to care back and being able to build that love and that relationship.

It goes with any kinship situation. It could be a family friend that you consider family. It's the same thing. If your parents were to bring in a friend and they said that this is their really close friend, you build a close relationship with that person and maybe you get close with them. It's the same idea, but instead of it being someone who is like family, they become family.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You called your family your “real family”. They are your real family. Is that correct?

When you're meeting other young people, you're an advocate. What do you tell them about how to create a real family?

[Cassaundra Eisner]

I think that real family are the people you choose, that you care about and who also choose you, love you and support you. They're people who you would do the same for.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That's profound because I think family is a choice at the end of the day, even when you're biological. At the end of the day, you're going to choose either to stay together and look out for each other or not. Some don't.

This is very helpful.

Ms. McLeod, in your research with older children coming into adoptive situations, where there are going to be more issues of trust, what recommendations do you make to ensure that the attachment bond provides the confidence that's required, so they can grow in a loving environment?

[Carolyn McLeod]

Thank you.

We do recommend, for older children who are adopted, that their parents have that additional leave. Some might argue...and it's true that in some countries, actually, there's an age limit on when parents can have additional leave or the same leave given to other adoptive families.

The presumption there is that while this child is in school all day the parents don't necessarily need the leave, but as we say in the report, it's equally important, whether the child is 15 or three, that the parents have the leave. The kids are going to go to school for part of that time, but parents might choose to home-school them, which for a certain period of time might be a good solution to deal with the attachment issue. Even if they go to school, being there for them in the morning, being there for them at lunchtime if they can come home for lunch and being there when they get off school, all of that is important for getting as much contact as you can have to encourage that attachment to happen.

You're not going to solve all attachment problems within a year of leave, but as our report says, there's evidence to show that significant improvement can happen within that first year, and that's true regardless of the age of the child. It's important to have that leave.

My second son was adopted at age six. I don't think he fully attached to me until probably about a year ago. He's now 13. Certainly, having the time with him at the beginning was crucial to get that process off the ground and get it working well.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you very much.

I have nine seconds left. I'll use it in the next round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

I have Mr. Aitchison for five minutes.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to both of you.

Cassaundra, thank you. You're incredibly courageous to be here to tell your story. It's amazing. It's moving for us.

I feel a little odd, though, that we're talking about this particular piece of legislation. As I absorb what I'm hearing and what I'm feeling, I think to myself that 15 weeks of leave for time to attach seems like such a no-brainer. It feels a little dumb that we're talking about this, to be honest. How is it possible that we're talking about this?

As Ms. Murphy was speaking earlier, she made a comment about how she could “ask for the moon”, but she didn't because the time didn't necessarily permit.

I'm not sure you're allowed to speak any more, Ms. Murphy. Maybe Mr. Chair would permit that.

However, I would ask all of you, I guess, if you were to ask for the moon.... When I heard the numbers, the number of children in the child welfare system and the number who actually get adopted.... You were nine by the time you were adopted. How old were you?

[Cassaundra Eisner]

I was 11.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

You were 11. I'm sorry—my apologies.

I think to myself, what could we do to increase the number of people who wanted to adopt—if we made it possible for them to adopt—and who could provide that connection? I think about this in terms of the moral imperative: that it behooves us as Canadians in one of the most affluent societies in the history of the world to protect children.

I think about it in an economic context too, because when you think about 65% of persons who are unhoused having been in the child welfare system, there's a pretty direct correlation to that lack of attachment, the lack of connection, the lack of the power of love and to being unable to love.

This is a no-brainer. We just have to get this done, and hurry up and get it done. What would you do if you were to say, “Scott Aitchison, wave your magic wand and just fix this”? Give me some ideas, because I think that's what we should be truly fighting for.

[Cassaundra Eisner]

If you had your magic wand with you today, I would say that we need at least to have equal parental rights when it comes to leave. I know that it depends on the child and it depends on the situation. Some children develop and attach much faster than others do. In my case, it took me four years to fully attach to my family and to be able to tell them everything and be honest and realize, okay, they're not going anywhere.

That's a long time, but I think to at least have the minimum, the same amount that biological families do, is important. That's what I would ask for.

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