That, given that:

(a) Canada's housing crisis continues to worsen.

(b) According to the CMHC, starts on new housing construction were down 7% in 2023, putting Canada further from the 2030 target to restore housing affordability.

(c) No housing has been built as a result of the Housing Accelerator Fund.

The committee invite the Minister of Housing and the Acting President of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation to testify before the committee separately for no less than two (2) hours each, within 14 days of the passage of this motion.

I'll just speak on this briefly.

The housing situation in Canada has become worse since the housing minister and the CMHC CEO were here last. Housing is the responsibility of this committee, and the most recent update from the Bank of Canada's housing affordability index shows that affordability is now worse than in the 2008 financial crisis and also worse than in the mid-1990s. As a result of the Liberals' inflationary spending, the Bank of Canada still cannot bring down interest rates, further putting mortgage holders in a crisis.

Now the CMHC just reported that there were 7% fewer housing starts in 2023 compared to 2022. This is more than 17,000 houses fewer in 2023 compared to 2022. The CMHC's outgoing president told the Senate finance committee that there is no plan at CMHC to build the number of homes needed by 2030 to restore affordability. This is why we need the current CMHC CEO and the Liberal housing minister to come before this committee to answer on the worsening housing crisis and explain how there is no plan to restore housing affordability.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you.

Just before we continue, I want to advise the witnesses that they're free to leave because the part of the committee meeting that they were here for has been concluded.

Thank you.

With that, the motion is in order. Is there any discussion?

Go ahead, Mr. Fragiskatos.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

I will seek to amend the motion, Mr. Chair, in light of the fact that the minister has appeared at committee several times and that there is now only an interim CEO at CMHC, since Ms. Bowers has gone to the IMF.

In light of those things and in light of the important fact that there's not enough emphasis in this motion, with all due respect, on affordable housing or co-op housing, I would amend it so that it reads:

Given that:

Canada is in a housing crisis; the committee undertake a study of co-op and affordable housing. That the committee invite the President and CEO of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation once appointed to testify before the committee for no less than two hours.

I can repeat it if that was too fast.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Can you forward a copy to the clerk? Perhaps you can forward it and then I will ask you to read it again slowly into the record.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Sure. I will read it again slowly, and then I will forward it. How's that?

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

That's good, and then we'll print it and circulate it.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

It is that, “Given that Canada is in a housing crisis, the committee undertake a study of co-op and affordable housing, and that the committee invite the president and CEO of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, once appointed, to testify before the committee for no less than two hours.”

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Committee members, the motion has been read into the record. Unless it's available in both official languages, we'll have to deal with it as it's presented verbally on the record.

Do you have it in both languages?

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

I don't at this point.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Okay. In that case, the clerk cannot circulate it, but the amendment is debatable.

Mr. Fragiskatos, you've verbalized it.

It's over to Mr. Aitchison, and then who else had their hand up? Was it Madame Gazan?

Okay, we have Scott, and then Leah and then Tracy.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Maybe I'll take my hand down now, because I want to hear what everybody has to say first, including Madame Chabot.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

That's fine.

I have Mr. Aitchison, and then Madame Chabot and then Ms. Gray.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think it actually would be okay if we added some further analysis of co-op housing. I think it's one of the many tools that should be at our disposal to solve the crisis of housing and affordable housing.

I guess what concerns me about that amendment is this notion that despite the fact that we're in a housing crisis, the current interim president of the CMHC is apparently not up to the job of coming to talk to us about the issue. Is that the message I'm supposed to receive here?

I think the current interim president happens to have worked at CMHC for some time. It's not as though he's new to the game. I wonder how long we should wait for the new president to be installed. In the meantime, is the place just adrift? Is there nobody at the helm and we can't really talk to the current president? What's the message we're supposed to receive from such a strange amendment?

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

It's Madame Chabot, then Ms. Gray, and then Mr. Fragiskatos on the amendment of Mr. Fragiskatos.

Madame Chabot, go ahead.

5 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

From the outset, I would have been inclined to support Ms. Gray's motion, but I have a question about it. We may disagree on some of the arguments, but they are essentially true.

In 2023, new housing construction declined. We are talking about a housing crisis, which is a priority for everyone. We see that, in 2023, there was a drop, and it is true that no housing was built. However, the housing accelerator fund has been in place since 2022. In concrete terms, nothing has been built. Agreements are ending. They are still being signed, but no changes have been made.

I agreed with that strategy and I have already said so to CMHC representatives. This strategy is spread over 10 years. There is a housing crisis, half a year has gone by and all we see are difficulties. How are we going to adapt? These are good questions.

The amendment that Mr. Fragiskatos has put forward is to wait until the new president of CMHC is appointed. When will he be officially appointed? How much longer will that take? It also proposes adding co-ops and affordable housing. I think there needs to be a broader definition.

I would be inclined not to go with the new proposal and to go with the original proposal.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Madame Chabot.

It's Ms. Gray and then Mr. Fragiskatos on the amendment of Mr. Fragiskatos.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

On this amendment, basically saying that the current CEO of CMHC would not be coming to this committee means that the Liberals are proposing that the person will never come to committee, that there won't be a representative from CMHC coming to committee. We don't know when there will be a permanent appointment. It could be after the next election, so basically what they're saying is that they don't want accountability.

This is an organization that is responsible for housing. We have new information, which I have laid out here, that has just been released since we had the CEO of CMHC and the housing minister here the last time. Therefore, it is absolutely relevant that we have both of them come here today.

Also, they've taken out the part about having the minister come, again to have no accountability from the minister. Basically they're saying we don't know when anyone will be able to come to this committee to talk about housing. That's just completely wrong, considering how it is one of the top issues, the top priorities, for Canadians.

Thank you.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Mr. Fragiskatos, go ahead on your amendment.

January 29th, 2024 / 5 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

If colleagues choose to hear what I've said in a particular way, I can't control that, Mr. Chair, but I would share with them a few different things.

First of all, if our side were opposed to the idea of hearing from CMHC, we would have shown that before, but on the contrary, we've backed motions that ultimately brought CMHC here many times in the part of the session that started in September and ran through to the middle of December. There is that to consider.

To Mr. Aitchison's point about the interim CEO, I would prefer to hear from a full CEO when one is appointed. That, I think, is not out of place. Ms. Chabot asked when that appointment would come. I'm not sure when it will come, but I would expect it to come in due course. When that happens, I think we will be able to have a much more substantive discussion on the issues at hand.

Furthermore, because I do remember colleagues around the table—including Ms. Kwan, who is the housing critic for the New Democrats and who has been here on previous occasions, although she's not here today—talking about the importance of rent-geared-to-income housing in all of this, if there's a view that suggests that it should be included as well, I would be open to that. Then we would look at co-op housing and rent-geared-to-income housing, emphasizing the importance of non-market housing. All of these things could be taken up in what I think would be a serious and substantive meeting.

I know Ms. Gray comes to this issue with very good intent and thoughtfulness, but I'm simply seeking to strengthen the motion that was originally put on the table so that we can have a better meeting, frankly, and provide stronger recommendations to the government.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Mr. Aitchison, go ahead on the amendment.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

We hear what we hear, I guess, is what it comes down to. What I hear is that my colleague isn't quite familiar with the fact that the housing situation in this country is in a crisis. The previous minister wouldn't use the word. The current minister does actually use the word, but it seems his parliamentary secretary isn't seized with the matter.

I think the interim CEO is the interim CEO because they have a certain skill set and knowledge and understanding of the organization and the issues, and that's why they're there. If they're not capable of speaking to committee, then they shouldn't be the interim CEO, I suppose.

The fact of the matter is that this is a delay tactic. I recognize that the minister doesn't like the photo ops he gets here rather than out around the country, but that's what we're here for—to raise the issues that matter to this country and the people of this country. This is the most pressing issue our country is facing right now.

I'm looking at one of my colleagues here who used to be a city councillor. I was reading about one of his former colleagues—

5:05 p.m.

Liberal