Human Resources Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2026

[The Chair (Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I call the meeting to order.

Committee members, the HUMA committee will resume for the second hour in public. The first item of business we have is to choose a vice-chair to replace the vice-chair we had.

I'll turn it over to the clerk to take us through the election of a vice-chair.

Madam Clerk.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Madeleine Martin]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the second vice-chair must be a member of an opposition party other than the official opposition.

I'm now prepared to receive motions for the second vice-chair.

Ms. Desrochers, go ahead.

[Caroline Desrochers, Liberal, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I would like to nominate Andréanne Larouche as second vice-chair.

[The Clerk]

It has been moved by Ms. Desrochers that Ms. Larouche be elected as second vice-chair of the committee.

Are there any further motions?

(Motion agreed to)

[The Clerk]

I declare the motion carried and Ms. Larouche duly elected second vice-chair of the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Larouche.

We will now continue with the agenda item. We're meeting today on the subject matter of divisions 34, 36 and 44 in part 5 of Bill C-15, an act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on November 4, 2025.

I would like to welcome our witnesses. From Build Canada Homes, we have Ana Bailão, chief executive officer, and Jean Lamirande, senior vice-president of policy and operations. From the Department of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities, we have Janet Goulding, senior assistant deputy minister of the housing and homelessness branch.

Ms. Bailão, you have five minutes, if you wish, to give an opening statement before we move to questions.

[Ana Bailão, Chief Executive Officer, Build Canada Homes]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members, for the opportunity to highlight the work we're doing at Build Canada Homes to address Canada's housing crisis.

The measures proposed in Bill C-15, the budget implementation act, will equip Build Canada Homes with the authorities we need to deliver housing at the scale and speed Canadians deserve.

I am pleased to be joined today by Janet Goulding, senior assistant deputy minister, and Jean Lamirande, Build Canada Homes' senior vice-president of policy and operations.

Across the country, housing supply isn't keeping pace with demand, putting sustained pressure on affordability and availability. Addressing this requires action at scale. As a new agency, Build Canada Homes is part of a broader set of federal measures to accelerate housing construction, restore affordability and reduce homelessness. These efforts recognize that increasing supply, particularly non-market and affordable housing, requires coordinated action with partners across governments and indigenous communities, as well as the private and non-profit building sectors.

Build Canada Homes is a lean, purpose-built agency that is leveraging public lands, deploying flexible financial tools and catalyzing modern methods of construction. In doing this, we are positioned to accelerate timelines, improve productivity in the sector and support a more innovative homebuilding sector.

Build Canada Homes will also be a key driver to Canada's buy Canadian policy. By prioritizing Canadian materials, the agency will drive demand for Canadian steel, lumber and aluminum while strengthening domestic supply chains and supporting local jobs.

The measures proposed in the budget implementation act will provide the legislative authority to operationalize Build Canada Homes and ensure that it has the resources needed to deliver results. Specifically, these measures will authorize payments of up to $11.5 billion out of the consolidated revenue fund to support our operations and activities. This funding will enable the agency to partner with provinces, territories, municipalities, non-profits, indigenous partners and builders to finance and accelerate housing projects.

The bill also authorizes just over $1.5 billion to capitalize Canada Lands Company Limited, allowing Build Canada Homes to unlock construction on its portfolio sites. We have already advanced six federal land projects toward construction and committed to getting shovels in the ground this year on thousands of affordable homes. Requests for qualifications have been issued for up to 4,000 homes on federal lands across these six sites.

In Ottawa, just outside the downtown core, we will build approximately 1,100 homes on Heron Road. We will deploy the same rapid-build approach in Dartmouth, Edmonton, Longueuil, Toronto and Winnipeg to get new homes built for Canadians as quickly as possible. This is just the beginning.

Since its launch in September 2025, Build Canada Homes has delivered measurable results. The agency has formed partnerships with provinces and municipalities, forging commitments to ensure that supportive and transitional housing is matched with the wraparound services residents need. That includes 30 supportive and transitional units announced in Nova Scotia and 54 in Toronto, with further negotiations under way to ensure critical services.

Build Canada Homes is also committed to building indigenous partnerships that further self-determination and contribute meaningfully to meeting the needs of indigenous communities. Through Build Canada Homes, the governments of Canada and Nunavut and Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated have reached an agreement in principle to support the development of 750 units of non-market housing in Nunavut. These homes will be designed and delivered in collaboration with Inuit, for Inuit.

Bill C-15 will unlock the tools for Build Canada Homes to forge new partnerships, drive coordinated action and establish modern development models that can scale affordable housing like never before. This is how we will move from incremental progress to transformative results. By changing how Canada builds, Build Canada Homes is delivering exactly what Bill C-15 is meant to unlock: speed, scale and innovation.

Another meaningful indicator of our early momentum is the level of engagement we are seeing from across the country. Since releasing our investment policy framework and launching our national submission portal in November, we have seen strong interest nationwide. Proposals have come in from every province and territory. Many are under review and hundreds more are in progress, building a robust pipeline of projects ready to break ground in 2026.

In Ottawa, we're partnering with the city on a $400-million effort to deliver up to 3,000 new homes, with many starting constructions in 2026. In Nova Scotia, a $300-million partnership will unlock up to 1,430 homes across the province. More than half of these will be community, non-profit, supportive or transitional units. In building partnerships that prioritize non-market and non-profit housing, we are ensuring affordability in the long term.

Our goal is clear: to create a system that doesn't just build more homes, but that builds better and faster in partnership with people who make housing possible. Build Canada Homes is here to drive that change.

Thank you for inviting me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madam Bailão.

We'll now begin the six-minute round of questioning with Ms. Goodridge.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our guests for being here today to discuss this important issue.

We have a limited amount of time. I'm going to ask that you keep your answers quite short so that we can get through all the questions.

How much has Build Canada Homes, Canada's fourth housing bureaucracy, spent since its inception nearly a year ago?

[Ana Bailão]

We were announced on September 14. We are waiting for this bill to pass to actually have access to the funds.

We have done agreements with both Ottawa and Nova Scotia. This bill will allow us to spend the money. The money we've spent is actually for the 3,000 homes in Ottawa, the 1,430 in Nova Scotia, 54 in supportive housing in Toronto and 4,000 in direct builds on six sites across the country.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Okay, but how much money have you spent?

[Ana Bailão]

As I told you before, the—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

How much money has been spent since you were created?

[Ana Bailão]

In these deals, we have $1.5 billion on the 4,000 units, $400 million on the Ottawa deal, $150 million on Nova Scotia and $22 million on Ottawa. That is the total amount that was spent on creating over 7,500 units across the country.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

You're taking credit for work that's been done by another agency, the Canada Lands Company, which is Canada's second housing bureaucracy.

Is that accurate?

[Ana Bailão]

It's not accurate.

We are developing in a very different model. We are putting requests for proposals that were not on the street. We are leveraging public land together with financial tools, which has not been done before. That is the innovation of Build Canada Homes. It is one agency having the use of public land and leverage of public land and financial tools.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you.

How many of these units that you have done are move-in ready?

[Ana Bailão]

Nine of the homes in Nunavut are move-in ready. We got the notice very recently.

All these units will have shovels in the ground in 2026. As you know, it takes some time to build the units. We're still waiting for the money from this budget bill.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you.

The first Canadian housing bureaucracy, CMHC, says we need to build half a million housing units a year. You said you've built nine. That's a long way off half a million.

Would you say we're in a housing crisis here in Canada?

[Ana Bailão]

We are one of the initiatives that the government is taking to build housing. We are focused on the non-market. As I said, the organization has been operational since September. In our first 100 days, we are working on 7,500 units. Again, we are one part of the solution. We act on one part of the housing continuum. CMHC continues to do their work and support housing and other agencies.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you.

I didn't ask that. I asked if we are in a housing crisis. Can you answer that?

[Ana Bailão]

I've been working on housing for many years, since 2010, which is when I first started working on housing. I would say that since that time, we continue to be in a very difficult situation on housing and in a housing crisis.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

CMHC's estimate is that we need half a million housing units a year. This means 46,666 a month, and we've achieved nine in seven months, which is pretty indicative that this is a failure. I think most Canadians would agree with the Conservatives in calling it a housing crisis.

[Ana Bailão]

If I could, I'd just explain that the amount of housing built in this country will be delivered by many sectors. It's not Build Canada Homes that will be delivering half a million homes. We need the private sector. We need the non-profit sector. We need the municipalities, the provinces and everybody to come together. It's not one organization that builds half a million homes. What happens...and very often I say there's not one sector, there's not one government that has to solve this housing crisis. Another thing that Build Canada Homes brings to the table is the partnership approach, in which we work together to build houses.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you for this. I appreciate that you called it a housing crisis, somewhere in the answer.

On the partnership question, just give the number. How many indigenous partnerships has your agency forged since it was created?

[Ana Bailão]

Nunavut, with 750 homes, is the first one announced, and we have several others in the works.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

How many more?

[Ana Bailão]

We have several partners we are negotiating with right now.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

There are hundreds of first nations and many Métis communities across this country. There are many indigenous communities. You say that there's one, and then you can only say that there are several more. Are there seven or 10...?

[Ana Bailão]

It's a real priority for Build Canada Homes to work with our indigenous partners. That is why we have reached out not only to the housing providers in indigenous communities but also to the housing manufacturers. We want not only to create housing but also to create this as economic and community development.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you.

Build Canada Homes is now the fourth Liberal housing bureaucracy. Is this not an admission that the first three bureaucracies failed?

[Ana Bailão]

No. This is a new way of delivering the tools that we have. Canada Lands Company is coming to work under—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I have very little time left.

Is Build Canada Homes working with DND to build homes for those serving our country?

[Ana Bailão]

Yes, we are.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

What locations are they in?

[Ana Bailão]

We've just initiated the conversations on how we're going to deploy our resources with their needs and with the resources that currently exist within their department.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Goodridge.

Madame Desrochers, go ahead for six minutes please.

[Caroline Desrochers, Liberal, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to the witnesses for attending this afternoon's meeting in person as part of a very important conversation.

I find it very interesting to hear my colleagues across the table, when they've voted time and time again against any sort of support to solve the housing crisis. I would just remind everyone that we have been very clear that there is a housing crisis, and we have set up Build Canada Homes.

I really want to give the witnesses time to speak.

Having been involved in the bureaucracy for more than 20 years, I'm really impressed by the work that has been done so far to set up the agency. Well done! Let me start by saying congratulations.

Can you quickly tell us how stakeholders reacted when you announced the creation of Build Canada Homes?

I've asked quite a few questions on my end. I'd like you to tell me how the announcement of the investment policy framework was received by the private sector, developers, project implementers, municipalities and non-profit organizations, or NPOs, which are really working to create more affordable housing.

[Ana Bailão]

Thank you.

It was very well received. Many, including myself—I've been in private sector, non-profit and government on the other side—have advocated for this and have asked the federal government, for many years, to make public lands more available to build on and to have this coordinated with financial tools. This is exactly what Build Canada Homes is doing.

Also, it's to have an agency with flexibility in addressing the different housing needs and realities across the country. This is the flexibility we've been given to work with the local communities, with the provincial governments and with the municipalities and to respond to their needs, using flexibility to unlock projects, make projects work, get shovels in the ground and respond to the local needs.

[Caroline Desrochers, Liberal, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much.

Can you talk about how the focus of Build Canada Homes on modernizing construction is going to help build faster, build more quickly and eventually, at term, reduce the cost of building?

[Ana Bailão]

We are investing in a part of the market all the way from transitional housing. This is housing that—let's be honest—the market does not produce. It's necessary to invest funds from the government in this area all the way to workforce housing, for which we start partnering with the private sector, and so on.

By doing this investment and making sure that we create a pipeline of modular housing, we are giving something to manufacturers that they desperately need, which is the certainty of the pipeline. Many who have been in consultations with the government have said that one of the biggest impediments to scale has been the certainty of supply.

Through an investment that needs to happen in affordable housing, in transitional housing and in workforce housing, the government is creating certainty in supply as well and working with them. Eventually, the market as a whole is going to benefit because we're going to have a more robust and more secure, scaled-up industry. That's how we are a catalyst for modern methods of construction.

[Caroline Desrochers, Liberal, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much.

I will continue on the issue of investment in market housing compared with investment in non-market housing.

The opposition often tells us to stop getting involved in this area, to leave it up to the market to resolve the situation. Can you tell us how Build Canada Homes focusing on affordable housing as part of its mission will also actually help the market housing sector?

[Jean Lamirande, Senior Vice President, Policy and Operations, Build Canada Homes]

Thank you for your question.

First, we know that there is a major shortage of non-market housing in Canada. We are very limited in that regard, compared to international markets. There is definitely a need to be met. That's why we need an agency whose mission is to fund and develop affordable housing in the country. What we want at Build Canada Homes is not only to fund projects, but also to be a catalyst for the market. It's a matter of providing opportunities for partnerships between the private sector and the non-market sector to develop mixed-income housing. So we would like to provide affordable units together in order to create financial viability.

We also want to create a demand for modern construction methods and contribute to that demand in the context of new technologies. It's an attempt to promote the adoption of the general market.

[Caroline Desrochers, Liberal, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

[Caroline Desrochers, Liberal, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Can you maybe tell us what you are proudest of over the last 100 days with Build Canada Homes?

[Ana Bailão]

I'm very proud of seeing the units arriving in Nunavut and of the partnership. We now have the housing authority and the Inuit with us at the table. It's a tripartite agreement. I'm proud of that. I'm proud of the agreements we've done with not only Nova Scotia but also the City of Halifax. We have the three orders of government for projects we're doing. In Ottawa we're developing not only on our lands but also with the City of Ottawa and on their list as well.

In 100 days, we were able to put a small, mighty team together and start getting these units out across the country...and go through hundreds of proposals that have come in.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Ms. Larouche, you have six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here today to discuss this issue that is so crucial and important for the riding of Shefford.

Ms. Bailão and Mr. Lamirande, I obviously have a number of questions for you.

We see that there are various requests. In your opening remarks, you talked about Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg and Longueuil. I know that to address the housing issues….

In my region, the municipality of Granby is interested in Build Canada Homes' mission. There are small municipalities in the surrounding area that are wondering what their share will be, what will go to Granby or to rural municipalities. In short, for all these reasons, we see that Quebec knows the needs of these communities best. I think that's the concern.

An agreement on housing was recently concluded between Ottawa and Quebec. Wouldn't it have been simpler, and above all more effective, to transfer the money directly to Quebec, as the Bloc Québécois, the Government of Quebec and small municipalities are calling for, to ensure that those municipalities won't be forgotten by the federal government?

I would like to hear you on the importance of these transfers.

[Jean Lamirande]

Thank you very much for your question.

Actually, I'll start with Build Canada Homes' mandate, which is to use its financial tools in innovative ways to create affordable housing across the country.

In terms of transferring a fair share, the agency was not set up that way. We have the option to propose different types of funding, such as flexible funding, long-term and short-term funding, and funding over different terms. So we want to calibrate our offer according to the needs of the various communities. That is one of the reasons why we are in partnership with the Société d'habitation du Québec. We need to work together to establish a collaborative group, share our priorities and work together on these different joint projects to achieve our goals. That's what the announcement made over the past few weeks really meant.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

The fact remains that, when you want to impose federal housing conditions, small municipalities have questions and point out that it's counterproductive and that Quebec is in a better position to know their needs and respond to them appropriately.

In addition, not only small municipalities are asking questions; seniors' groups are as well. In a context where seniors are finding it increasingly difficult to find housing, organizations that work with seniors, such as FADOQ, and once again, Quebec and the community, know their needs best. These groups are concerned that, with federal conditions being imposed, they will not get their fair share. We need housing for seniors and for small municipalities.

What do you have to say to FADOQ, an organization that is among those groups that think that Quebec is probably in the best position to know their housing needs?

[Jean Lamirande]

From our perspective at Build Canada Homes, we're not in a position to impose conditions. We don't have a mandate for conditional funding transfers. We are establishing a collaboration with the province to see how we can advance our shared priorities. We've created a situation where collaboration is the default—meaning that we agreed that the SHQ and the Province of Quebec would approve the various projects we will fund in the province. That's quite acceptable, as we want to fund projects that align with the province's priorities, whether in urban areas, rural areas or anywhere else in the province.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

What we are hearing about Build Canada Homes is that there might not be—I'm using the conditional here—any agreement on housing. Obviously, you're saying that there won't be any conditions, but we'll see, as we don't yet know which programs will be affected by the creation of Build Canada Homes and which ones will be abolished, maintained or enhanced.

Can the government explicitly commit to ensuring that the creation of this new structure won't come at the expense of existing programs that are already working, especially in Quebec?

[Ana Bailão]

The list is going to be developed in conjunction with the Province of Quebec; we're working together on the projects. We also have very flexible financial tools. We're not an agency that only has grants and loans.

The reason we are not just giving the money to Quebec or any other is that we have different tools, such as equity participation and loan guarantees. All this can be our participation to unlock a project that a province might need. That is what we have to...and we're coming to the table with the Government of Quebec to look at the projects that are a priority for the Government of Quebec and to make sure that Quebec, like any other province, has all the tools available to it. We wouldn't want to not have the same tools available for our province, just giving them an amount of cash instead. That is not the model that Build Canada Homes is coming to the table with. We come to the table on a partnership.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Mr. Aitchison, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Okay, thank you.

Ms. Bailão, it's lovely to have you back. It's good to see you again.

To start, I want to talk to you briefly about the six sites that were announced on federal lands. They're in Dartmouth; Longueuil, Quebec; Ottawa; Toronto; Winnipeg and Edmonton. Each site was previously owned by the Canada Lands Company. Do you know how long the Canada Lands Company had been working on those projects before they were transferred to Build Canada Homes?

[Ana Bailão]

These are mostly master plan communities, so I'd imagine it's a significant time. I just joined the government on September 29, so I don't have the history, but I imagine that doing a master plan community and getting those sites would require some time.

I would call attention to the model that we also have with finance. We have $1.5 million to invest in those sites, so what we're bringing together is not only about the land. It's bringing the land together with the source of funds and pushing for modern methods of construction; this goes right in line with our mandate.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Let's get into that, then.

Just to clarify, though.... I've done a little research. For Dartmouth, it's been about 11 years since the Canada Lands Company got a hold of it. For Longueuil, Quebec, it has been about 20 years since Canada Lands got a hold of it.

Heron Road in Ottawa has been 12 years in the works. The longest time period there has been just for getting the federal government to dispose of the lands. For Downsview, it's been 16 years. For Winnipeg, it's been five. The Edmonton project has been ongoing for 22 years, and there are still no homes built, of course.

I guess I want to point out that none of these were raw or newly identified lands. They've all been in the works with the CLC for years—sometimes decades. Four were already zoned and effectively ready to go. Build Canada Homes' main intervention has been procurement of financing.

Was it not possible for the Canada Lands Company to have those tools as well, since it already existed as a federal agency?

[Ana Bailão]

We're just bringing in Canada Lands. When he announced Build Canada Homes, the Prime Minister noted that Canada Lands was coming under the BCH.

We're going to work with the lands that are available at Canada Lands and other ones. The key is to have the land that is available and leverage it for public use, together with the flexible tools that we have. We are working with Canada Lands—their expertise and their people—and we're doing exactly that.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

That's fantastic, but let's dig into that a little deeper.

You also indicated that Build Canada Homes is going to free up federal lands and get them into the mix faster. Based on how long it took the Canada Lands Company to get these lands out of the federal government's hands, what specifically will Build Canada Homes do differently so the process doesn't take 10 years?

[Ana Bailão]

We would work on the rezoning and development. Obviously, the government is the one that has to make the lands available to us.

Maybe Janet can jump in, because housing and infrastructure is leading that conversation.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

No, actually, that's a good point. You're going to work on the zoning. You're a former city councillor. You understand the long, painful and outrageously expensive process that the zoning approval and development charges can be—particularly in Toronto; let's not kid ourselves.

How are you going to speed up that process with municipalities?

[Ana Bailão]

That's the benefit of Build Canada Homes. In the conversations we're having, for example, with the City of Ottawa, we've been able to get an implementation table that is going to speed up the approval of our lands and get development charges waived on our lands. It's the same thing with Halifax.

Because we're bringing these tools together and because we are at the table—

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Are you going to do that city by city? I realize that you've done something like this with Ottawa, but there are a lot of cities in this country.

[Ana Bailão]

The way we develop our lands will be in partnerships with the communities in which we operate. We want governments to come to the table, absolutely.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

You're familiar with Tricon's project at Canary Landing in Toronto. I know you were part of the approvals process for that. I'm sure you're aware that the timeline for that project was about five or six years. It's done. I toured it last year. It's amazing. Thirty per cent of the units are affordable.

[Ana Bailão]

I was at the city when that happened.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I know you were.

I'm wondering why a federal agency would be needed to do what a private corporation did with the support of.... The provincial government basically gave them the land for a long-term lease and got out of the way. The private corporation got it done super fast, under an agreement that they make 30% of the units affordable. How—

[Ana Bailão]

This is exactly what Build Canada Homes is going to do. That was done through IO—Infrastructure Ontario—on provincial land, with the City of Toronto and financing from the federal government.

This is what Build Canada Homes is actually bringing. We are bringing the federal lands together with the financing that we control and partnering with developers to allow them to speed up and do developments in five years, as you're talking about.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I don't have any time left, but if you can provide us detail on how you're going to speed things up with cities, that would be great.

[Ana Bailão]

It is like what I did with Tricon when I was at the city.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Okay. We'll get back into it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Aitchison.

Mr. Joseph, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Chair, I want to congratulate Ana Bailão on her great work at Build Canada Homes. I was listening to her answer questions from Laila Goodridge earlier, and I felt that she wanted to ask her the following question, so I'll ask her: Why did you vote against the budget?

I am the member for Longueuil—Saint‑Hubert. In Longueuil, it was announced that 1,055 homes will be built, 40% of which will be non-market housing. This is good news for the people of Longueuil. Recently, in Longueuil, we had the opportunity to welcome the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Housing and Infrastructure, Caroline Desrochers, with whom we toured organizations that work with people experiencing homelessness.

Since we're talking about homelessness, I'd like to remind you that Longueuil has been experiencing a homelessness crisis for more than five years. I also looked into the situation in the riding of Shefford, and I saw that we were facing the same challenges when it comes to homelessness. This is a crucial issue in Granby, as my colleague just said. So it's really ironic to hear the Bloc members say that Build Canada Homes should transfer the funds to Quebec City, when they voted against the budget. I'm not trying to pick a fight; I just wanted to point that out.

We know that the homelessness crisis is closely linked to the lack of affordable and transitional housing. How does Build Canada Homes integrate the prevention and reduction of homelessness into its overall mandate? I'm thinking in particular of my riding, Longueuil—Saint‑Hubert, and my colleague's riding, Shefford, as well as the ridings of my colleagues opposite, as the issue of homelessness affects not only Quebec, but all of Canada.

I sense that you want to alleviate the homelessness crisis. Can you expand on that?

[Ana Bailão]

Thank you.

The same day the Prime Minister announced Build Canada Homes, there was direction on a few fronts, and one of them was $1 billion on transitional housing.

We know the way we're going to deal with homelessness is with permanent housing, and the transition from homelessness into permanent housing is extremely important. This is one priority we're working on right now: transitional housing with project shovels in the ground in 12 months.

We work very closely with our colleagues at HICC. They're reviewing our proposals as well, to ensure the proposals respond to the goals of the government in general, and we are working with provincial governments to ensure that they come to the table with wraparound services.

The transitional housing agreement that we signed in Toronto and we launched was done with Minister Flack and with the City of Toronto. The province was at the table to do the operating, and the city was as well.

It was the same thing in Nova Scotia, where the provincial government was at the table for those units there.

It's not only our participation but also ensuring that we have provincial wraparound services for those units.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

A lot of people in my riding are talking to me about non-market housing accounting for 40%. People would like you to be a little more specific.

What does “non-market” mean?

Will it be housing for a homeless clientele or for public servants, for example?

[Ana Bailão]

For the 40% of housing, we're going to work with local non-profit organizations that will operate it for us. We'll look very closely at the local needs and working with the non-profits, and we will respond to the populations to serve the people who need it the most in those local communities.

We look forward to working with the non-profit sector and in your community to make sure we respond to the needs and have these services as well from the non-profit organizations.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Chair, how many minutes do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have five seconds left, Mr. Joseph.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

What role does Build Canada Homes play specifically in funding and implementing—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mr. Joseph, your time is up.

That was a good try.

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Let's talk about homelessness, since my colleague brought it up.

This is an issue for the city of Granby and the region.

Earlier this month, I met with organizations at their request. They work with people experiencing homelessness and deplore the fact that the encampment program will not be renewed.

For an organization, that means $30,000 less, after all. In other words, they're losing $30,000. For another organization, that means three or four fewer beds. Those are concrete spaces. Fewer people will receive services from those organizations because the program will not be renewed.

Those organizations told me about the comparison with the step principle. They are told that there is the Reaching Home program and Build Canada Homes.

I want to point out two things.

First of all, people don't see Build Canada Homes as a solution. They need homelessness funding to be able to provide emergency beds. Despite what you believe, before people get to the homes from Build Canada Homes, even if they are supervised, the organizations need this crucial funding. It's a principle. It's about what steps need to be taken before getting there. They need that funding.

Then they are told that, in any case, there is the Reaching Home program and Build Canada Homes, but there is no new opening in terms of communities, and Granby is not a designated community.

I'd like to hear what you have to say about the connection between Build Canada Homes and homelessness.

In my region, organizations need a homelessness program. For them, Build Canada Homes may be a step too far or a much higher step.

[Janet Goulding, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Housing and Homelessness Branch, Department of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities]

Thank you for the question.

The program I think you were talking about was two years of funding under the unsheltered homelessness initiative, or perhaps you were referring to Reaching Home, the federal homelessness program.

The program targeting encampments had two years of funding. The idea behind the program, when it was launched, was that it would help support capital investments in things like transitional and supportive housing. However, in the province of Quebec, they chose not to invest in capital investments, which was really the intent of the program, but instead invested more in services.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

This announcement was made in the middle of December, when winter was coming and people were going to be spending winter on the streets.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Larouche.

Mr. Aitchison, you have five minutes.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to talk to you about a couple of specific things.

I understand that you have a call coming up with an organization that I had the opportunity to visit while I was in Calgary on the weekend. It's called the Calgary Drop-In Centre. It's truly an amazing organization. What I particularly love about what they're doing is that they are aggressively working to find permanent housing for clients, as opposed to...just constantly cycling through the shelter system. I really admire people who recognize that the job, ultimately, is to put themselves out of business if they can, and that's their effort. I know you have a call or a meeting planned with them, and I will take the opportunity to say that I hope it goes very well, that you find a way to work with them. Maybe we can help other shelters operate in a similar kind of way. I just throw that out there.

I don't often do this, but there's another specific project that I'd like to mention to you. I think it represents the possibility of a model that can help housing within other organizations. You're probably familiar with a couple of different Legions across the country that have redeveloped: Sault Ste. Marie is a good example, and there's one in Toronto, I know, and in the city of Calgary. In my riding of Parry Sound—Muskoka, there's a very small community called Bala. It's tiny, but they have a 75-year-old Legion that is well past its best-before date, and its president just so happens to be Dennis Mills, a former Liberal member of Parliament—and we get along famously. They are working very hard, in a little place like Bala, to redevelop that Legion site to have 125 units of housing, much of which will be affordable.

Of course, they've been ready to go. The municipality was all on board. They got things done quickly, which doesn't always happen. They submitted things to Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, and now it has been bumped over to your agency. They're not looking for huge grants, of course, because these things actually generate some revenue. They're looking for affordable financing. This is one of the tools that, I'm told, you have available to you, so I'd love to encourage you to look specifically at this Bala Legion project.

I wonder, though, whether you'd be interested in looking at something more broadly with Dominion Command. A lot of these Legions, especially in rural communities—which I think have been largely neglected on the housing file for the last 10 years—are old Legions with dwindling membership and old buildings that are in a state of disrepair. I see this as an opportunity not just to create new housing but also to save the Legion. I'm wondering whether you'd be interested in looking at such a model, which works collaboratively to redevelop Legions and provide thousands of housing units at the same time, without huge grants.

[Ana Bailão]

Absolutely, I would. This is exactly the model that, with the flexibility we have at Build Canada Homes, allows us to work with organizations such as Legions. It is ideal because they come with land as well. We know the different components of the cost of housing, and dipping more into those—taking out the land costs, taxes and financing costs—is how we create the affordability.

When you have a program, such as the Legions or.... The United Church, for example, created its own corporation years ago to develop its own lands. These are the kinds of things that we can partner with and support.

We are seeing very interesting proposals coming to us: For example, small rural municipalities are getting together, with their own lands, and then coming together with one of the development managers—because it's hard for a smaller municipality—and creating the capacity.

This is the flexibility that Build Canada Homes brings to the table, to work with and to give certainty to those models, because we have flexible tools. We're not a program. We're not just a grant or financing. We can come at it in different ways and foster partnerships and bigger models.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

We're almost out of time, so I have another quick question for you. Can you give me a sense of timelines for organizations like the Bala Legion, which have submitted their proposal to your office? What kinds of timelines are we looking at? What should we expect in terms of a response to the Bala Legion?

[Ana Bailão]

We do a very initial response. We just set up at the end of November. For example, right now we have about 400 proposals in progress, so the organization started and they haven't completed the submission. Number one is the completed submission. The moment the proposal is complete, our goal is to—between 30 and 60 days—start engaging with the proponent.

Sometimes we find, as well, that we might not be able to engage in exactly the way that they're coming to us, so we initiate the dialogue and put on the table, “Maybe, if you look at it in a different way, and maybe, if we look at it and we can't come with such big financing, we'd do more of a bridge loan or a grant.” We try to work with the proponent to unlock the project and to make it work.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you. This is my official invitation to Bala. Come visit us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Aitchison.

The subject matter is most interesting, and I agree with you on the opportunity with Legions across the country.

With that, we'll move to Ms. Fancy for five minutes.

[Jessica Fancy-Landry, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you very much.

Through you, Chair, it's nice to have you here, Ms. Bailão.

I'm one of the Nova Scotia MPs, except I'm not from the HRM. I'm from a couple of hours away from HRM. It's nice to hear the word “rural” thrown around here today.

I'm going to talk about a story within my riding of South Shore—St. Margarets and then ask you a couple of questions about rural-centric policy and development with Build Canada Homes. As you said earlier, we need the speed, the scale and the innovation.

I've been talking with a lot of the developers in my area. So far, so good, but there are a few concerns that are developing as we get the portal and the structures and supports in place for Build Canada Homes. For example, in terms of rural advocacy and a rural lens, a lot of the developers are stalled in my area right now because they got proposals in, but they're feeling the lack of criteria. There are places in my riding where they're saying you need sidewalks, public transit and street lights, which we don't really have in rural Nova Scotia.

My colleague across the way talked about 100 units. For us, in our community, a development of 20, 30 or 40 units is huge. I wanted to get that out there in terms of some of the feedback that I'm receiving within my riding, to help support local needs.

You mentioned collating the municipalities for a larger application, similar to what we're seeing happen in New Brunswick, but the reality is that it's going to fall through when you're dealing with that many fingers in the pot and trying to get everybody together.

I'm asking, how do I have a small municipality or a small non-profit that can't compete on an application basis because they can't afford the $20,000, $30,000 or $40,000 for a consultant to help put applications together? Once again, I'm advocating for that.

I was at two or three of the round tables with the minister this summer, where I had brought quite a few developers that deal with affordable housing and deal with efficiency, especially efficiency in Nova Scotia, and gave a lot of great feedback. Now, as I'm seeing a lot of the policy and development and as things roll out, nothing of what they were talking about that we need for rural Nova Scotia or rural communities throughout the country is tabled in a lot of this. I wanted to put that out there to advocate for them.

For Canadians, municipalities or industry partners who may not understand the Build Canada Homes model coming from that CMHC model, can you please address the housing crisis and how you would describe the agency's mandate for structure in a rural approach in a way that clearly communicates purpose, objectives and mechanisms? We represent 40%, and we really want to have a piece of the pie.

Thank you.

[Ana Bailão]

Thank you.

Let's be clear. When we were talking about the proposals, one of the internal discussions we had was scale. We want to build at scale.

Scale is very different in different communities. We purposefully don't have a minimum, because 10 units in a rural community can be a huge scale. It's not the same as 10 units in Ottawa, for example. We do not look at a rural community the same way as we look at an urban community. They can come on their own.

The reason we're seeing some municipalities coming together is more a resource and convenience than our imposing on them. They know that, because they could come and have some certainty of funds; they could most likely have the resources available and the funding available coming together. We are not imposing that.

Another thing is that we're very different from CMHC. We act on a part of the continuum in terms of the transitional, all the way to.... I say the middle when we start working with a private development to create affordable housing, but we are focused on affordable housing.

Another difference is that CMHC is a financial institution with great programs for finance and insurance. We are partners. We are here to work with your non-profit organizations, developers and rural communities to partner. We need proposals. We don't have a check box to go check, check, check. We have the needs of the community and how we respond and unlock those projects to create the affordability the community needs.

[Jessica Fancy-Landry, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you so much for that.

It's good to see that I have you on record now. I hope you'll pull through for us in rural Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

That's five and change.

[Jessica Fancy-Landry, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Oh, I didn't actually talk about the budget.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Just a moment. We're going to do another round.

It's not a complete round. We'll do five and five and two and a half for the Bloc.

Now, for the official opposition, we have Mr. Aitchison.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Lucky you: I get to go again.

Ms. Bailão, during the election campaign, the Prime Minister talked about cutting development charges. He seemed to understand that local government charges and fees are a major impediment to getting homes built and making sure they are a bit cheaper for consumers to purchase.

Is Build Canada Homes involved in any part of this? We haven't heard anything more about it since then. I wonder if your agency is going to be part of that process. Is that part of your mandate?

[Ana Bailão]

No. That's not part of our mandate—

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

No. Okay—

[Ana Bailão]

—and we find it quite different across the country.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

It is. I'm sure that's why it hasn't been dealt with yet.

I'm wondering about Toronto, as an example—you have lots of experience there, having been a councillor. The city got its housing accelerator fund—$470 million, the biggest one in the country—agreed to for a number of things, not the least of which was sixplexes right across the city. They've come back and made them legal in nine of the 25 wards, and the penalty was to lose $10 million of that funding, or about 2%.

Starts have basically gone off a cliff in larger cities like the GTA and in the Lower Mainland. Is there anything specific that your agency will be doing in partnership with the private sector in those outrageously expensive markets to get them building again? I'm worried. They're starting to lay people off.

[Ana Bailão]

We're working with many non-profit organizations and the private sector in those markets, in the GTA or in B.C. We're working not only at the government level but also directly with the private and non-profit sectors to unlock some of those projects. We can bring some flexibility, which is important for unlocking some of those projects. I would like to go faster, but honestly, I need this budget to pass. Without the money, I cannot unlock those projects—

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Specifically, can you give me an example of what you're doing with a private sector developer? I mean it's math, simple math, right? What are you doing? Give me an example of a private sector developer you're working with. What are you doing to make the math work?

[Ana Bailão]

A bridge loan.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Okay. A bridge loan....

[Ana Bailão]

For example, we've had projects in which the rents are coming down. The bond rate, which is what is used—it has been very volatile—has increased. The math doesn't work anymore. By creating, in a couple of cases, a bridge loan, we're able to get shovels in the ground on those projects, and that unlocks the projects.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Is that for rental projects specifically?

[Ana Bailão]

These—the ones we're working on—were for rental projects as well.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Is there anything in terms of home ownership?

[Ana Bailão]

We're working on a couple of things on home ownership that I hope you'll be able to see. I can't divulge. It's still commercial confidential information.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

The minister was here, and I must admit that we talked to him about all the work going on. He raves about your organization and how you're getting rentals built and all that kind of stuff. I don't doubt that it's important. The non-market supply is low as well, and it's good that you're doing this, but it feels very much as though it's happening at the expense of market housing and ownership. Home ownership is something that I think Canadians still aspire to.

If in fact the root cause of the challenges there does lie with the cost and the timelines of government in the process.... We know that in Ontario, about 30% of the cost of the average home is the government. If we can't get the costs down, how do we get people back into home ownership?

[Ana Bailão]

I can tell you now, as somebody who came from the private sector in the last few years, that it's a mixture of things in the cost of housing. It is the price of landing, and that sometimes includes zoning restrictions. It is the interest rates going up. It is the fact that the investor is not there to buy the condo. It's very hard to get end-users to buy a condo in those markets and wait for five or seven years. It's the way we finance the condominiums. There are many things. There are definitely government fees. There's the timing of approvals.

It's a series of things. I can say that there's not one order of government or one sector that can solve this alone: It is partnerships and bringing every tool to the table. That is why I'm so proud, to be honest with you, to be working with Build Canada Homes: For many years, there was a disconnect in having so much federal land available and the financial tools and the power to bring partners to the table. We didn't make use of that.

I think this is a tool. It's part of the solution. It won't solve housing, but it's a big part of the solution, and it can be a catalyst for modern methods of construction as well.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I appreciate your private sector experience. I hope you really bring that to bear with this agency and we see some results. As I'm sure you're aware, the crisis is now; it's not five years from now.

Thanks for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We'll now go to Ms. Fancy for five minutes.

[Jessica Fancy-Landry, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Through you, Chair, let's talk budget.

As you just mentioned, we need to get this passed in order to unlock all the good things that we have set in place. Let's get the ball rolling.

My question in regard to the BIA is this: How would the impact of the proposed $11.5-billion investment in Build Canada Homes, as put forward by clause 200, be tracked and evaluated? How would transparency and accountability for these investments and their outcomes be provided to Canadians?

This is a transparency question. You're dealing with one of the biggest purses in all of our government, so how does that transparency come into play with the $11.5 billion?

[Ana Bailão]

We're going to be reporting very clearly on our website, as the projects get financed and approved, on the number of units financed, the affordability level and how the money is being deployed. It will be public and transparent.

I note that the 7,400 units we are working on need those funds available immediately. These are all shovels in the ground this year that, with a delay, cannot proceed.

We did an RFQ. We are doing an RFI now, starting with the sites. We cannot start deploying the money to get the shovels in the ground until the budget gets passed. The sooner we have the money, the sooner we'll get shovels in the ground. We'll get these ones and the ones we have in the pipeline available for Canadians to live in and for families to prosper.

[Jessica Fancy-Landry, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I look forward to all members around this table today helping to unlock the money so that you can get the work done that needs to get done.

How would the investment policy framework developed by Build Canada Homes inform the allocation of the proposed $11.5 billion?

[Ana Bailão]

There are clear priorities that we've indicated in the investment policy. These are priorities to have shovels in the ground, to be a partner, to have affordability and to have $1 billion for transitional housing. It sends a signal to the market on what our priorities will be and how the money will be deployed.

[Jessica Fancy-Landry, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Finally, what is the rationale for transitioning Build Canada Homes to potentially be a stand-alone federal agency? What impact do you think this will have on government operations and reporting?

[Ana Bailão]

We want to be a catalyst for modern methods of construction, but we also want to be a catalyst to attract others, especially funders, to be partners.

There are certain things that we are not able to do right now as a part of the ministry and as an operating agency. We don't have certain tools. We cannot use our equity, for example, which is a valuable tool as well.

Also, we want to attract capital. We are talking with banks. We're talking with pension funds. It is important to have these kinds of partnerships to be a stand-alone organization.

[Jessica Fancy-Landry, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you very much.

Those are all the questions I had today, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Fancy.

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to ask you a question about one of the concerns that some people may have.

Organizations like FRAPRU, the Fonds d'action populaire en réaménagement urbain, for example, talk about Build Canada Homes' definition of affordability, which in no way guarantees that housing will truly meet the ability to pay of those who need it. For example, Build Canada Homes would refer to affordability as 80% of median market rent. The use of 30% of household income in a given sector, including both renters and owners, is generalized, when it's a matter of funding housing referred to as “rental” housing. In short, the definition of affordability at Homes Canada can cause some problems.

What can you ensure to do to fund housing that will match the ability to pay for low and modest-income renters, and to really address the unaffordable housing crisis and the homelessness crisis?

[Ana Bailão]

Build Canada Homes has an income-based definition that uses census information. In order to respond to the local needs, we are using the local income, and it will not be 30% more than the median income there. We will support all the way from deeply affordable to medium-moderately affordable.

In certain markets, depending on the census information, we're talking about one bedroom for $400 or $300 in the deeply affordable case. Again, it's an income-based definition, and it goes from the deeply affordable to the moderately affordable.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I have one last question from the same organization. I'll do it quickly. What will happen to the new co-op housing program announced by the federal government? Will this co-op program be abandoned because of Build Canada Homes' creation?

[Ana Bailão]

Build Canada Homes and CMHC are working on making all programs affordable to ensure that there's a proper transfer or response to any applicant. Our commitments from both organizations to the co-op movement are quite significant, and we are working collaboratively on all programs—AHF, co-op and all of those programs—to ensure that there's a proper transition for the affordable housing part of the Build Canada Homes, since it is Build Canada Homes that will be, from now on, working on that part of the housing continuum.

Right now, we're working very collaboratively with CMHC to make sure that any proponent that has applications receives the service and that it doesn't see any issues with their applications or proposals.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Larouche.

Thank you, Ms. Bailão.

Before we close, as Chair, I would ask you to pay particular attention to the questions that were addressed by my colleagues Mr. Aitchison and Ms. Fancy as they relate to small, rural communities; I represent such communities as well. Candidly, we've missed some of those needs over the last number of years. This will be an opportunity to address the real housing needs in those small communities.

I thank them for raising those particular points, and I thank you for your testimony here today.

Committee members, our next meeting will be on Thursday.

Is it the will of the committee to adjourn?

We are adjourned.