Human Resources Committee on April 16th, 2026

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

We only have 10 seconds. There's a lot more to talk about, but I'll talk to you later.

Thanks.

[Caroline Desrochers, Liberal, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for joining us.

I can confirm we're working on renewing the national housing strategy. We're about to launch the consultations, and everything you just mentioned helps us get ready. It'll be a good opportunity to delve deeper into the definition of affordability and the issue of standardization, for example. We talked with the previous panel about setting clear objectives and indicators to know where we're going and what we need to build.

Thank you very much for being here today and for being part of this conversation over the last few years. I know you've made a great and significant contribution, and BCH is the response to what we've heard from you over the last few years. It is one piece of the puzzle. It is not meant to work alone. It's definitely meant to work in conjunction with current CMHC programs and will continue to do so in the future.

Member Aitchison, thanks for bringing up the fact that market and non-market housing do need to work together, and both need to be lifted up. We need to build everything: rental, home ownership and all of that. We also need to increase the stock of housing and affordable housing, that's for sure.

I'm just wondering, can you, in your view.... I guess this question is for everyone. Yes, we're trying to work with community organizations and not-for-profits to make sure that we build more affordable housing but also mixed-income projects, where market and non-market housing could be together in a project. We want to ensure long-term affordability.

Previously with CMHC, it was 10 years. We're raising the bar quite significantly on that with Build Canada Homes. I'd like to hear from you on whether or not you think this is the right way to go. What should we be mindful of as we're moving in that space?

Go ahead.

[Dr. Carolyn Whitzman]

Thank you, Ms. Desrochers.

One of the common misunderstandings about non-market housing is that it's assumed to be only for low-income people. It's true that some.... It depends on which program, but there are many successful non-market housing providers ranging from B.C. Community Land Trust to Ottawa Community Housing, and I could go on, that are building a combination of housing for low-, moderate- and even some middle-income people. I wouldn't want to conflate mixed income with mixed tenure.

Having said that, it is possible that Build Canada Homes could be a place where there is some innovation in terms of the mixed tenure that we need. I'll give one example. Limited dividend companies, which are private housing companies, are included in the National Housing Act. Those are companies whose profit is limited to less than 5% per year. They're a big part of development on government land. For instance, I mentioned the large development, Aspern Seestadt in Austria. That's one possibility. Another possibility is scaling up the amount of co-living. Equity co-operatives are 5% of the housing stock in Germany.

We don't have to see things just in terms of poor people living in non-market housing and rich people living in market housing. There's a lot more complexity out there, and that's why it's particularly important to have, first, a clear sense of what income bands we're talking about, and second, a little more accountability on what the rents or house costs are of the homes that are being developed through government-subsidized programs, whether it's the rapid housing initiative, the apartment construction loan program or the affordable housing program.

[Raymond Sullivan]

Thank you very much for the question, Ms. Desrochers.

For 20 years before my current position, I managed a non-profit housing company that was mixed-income housing. In fact, before I was on staff there, I was a tenant there. It's where my oldest child was born. I was paying market rent alongside folks who paid different levels of rent.

I would encourage the Government of Canada to think in terms of a national housing strategy that targets different income bands. Build Canada Homes has provided us with a convenient framework of moderate, median, low, very low and above-median incomes. We need a healthy housing system that works for all of those income bands.

We need a healthy market housing system and, for people who are not served by the market, we need a healthy non-market housing system. That includes rents at different levels. You can almost imagine coming up with strategies, initiatives and interventions for each of those income bands to ensure that there is housing that is adequate and affordable for all people in Canada.

[Caroline Desrochers, Liberal, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Irwin—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You still have 10 seconds, Ms. Desrochers.

[Caroline Desrochers, Liberal, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay.

[Tony Irwin]

I'll get it, maybe, in the next round.

[Caroline Desrochers, Liberal, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Desrochers.

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, witnesses, for joining us to discuss the important issue of housing. This issue is a concern for many municipalities in the Shefford riding.

I want to acknowledge the will of the municipality of Granby, which had one of the lowest vacancy rates. The city had to tackle the housing issue head-on and is still fighting to increase the number of housing units available.

Mr. Sullivan, Mr. Irwin, Ms. Whitzman, thank you for joining us. You're shedding some light on this bill that creates Build Canada Homes, a new structure.

Elected officials in my riding still have a lot of questions about this. There are 20 municipalities in my riding, and they all have very different realities. Granby is one of the 20 largest cities in Quebec. The other cities in the riding are more rural, but they also have housing needs.

We need to see how Build Canada Homes meets both the needs of larger municipalities, such as Granby, and those of smaller municipalities, such as Racine, whose mayor contacted me yesterday. He's eager to see how this will roll out and how we'll be able to use this new structure. He still has a lot of questions.

Before I go any further on Build Canada Homes, I have a question for Ms. Whitzman.

You raised an issue we've been raising for a long time at the Bloc Québécois. What does affordability actually mean? We've always said the expression “affordable housing” comes from English Canada. The Bloc Québécois keeps insisting on the importance of having a definition of social housing, community housing and co‑operative housing for Quebec that better represents the housing needs of the various clienteles.

Ms. Whitzman, what does the vague expression “affordable housing” mean? What impact does it have on citizens and their difficulty in finding housing?

[Dr. Carolyn Whitzman]

Thank you, Ms. Larouche.

I'm going to answer your question a little bit indirectly and go back to a question in the earlier hour.

I think it's really important that in the next national housing strategy there be a reprioritization of provincial leadership in some programs. For instance, Quebec is clearly doing some things right, because it has had the lowest rates of core housing need and of homelessness until recently, when it started to catch up, unfortunately, with the rest of Canada.

However, it is the responsibility of the federal government to show leadership on human rights, with the involvement of every other government. If the federal government were to say that its goal is to end homelessness in Canada—which is eminently preventable and eminently addressable with the right political will—by a certain date and then leave it up to the governments with which it has agreements, including Quebec, that would allow a distinctive Quebec approach that builds on distinctive Quebec strengths.

I'll give one example from Quebec that I've been very impressed by. Mission Unitaînés has replicable seniors buildings in small to mid-sized cities in Quebec such as Mascouche, where it doubled the amount of affordable housing.

It's possible that Build Canada Homes doesn't just have to promote portfolios that are about geographic areas. It could be promoting replicable seniors buildings and replicable buildings for other specific groups. I'd like to see a lot more flexibility around program delivery and a lot more consistency around definitions like affordability and shared goals that are human rights-directed.

I'm sorry if that doesn't directly answer your question, but it gives a sense of the approach that I think might work.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Whatever you say, it's music to my ears, Ms. Whitzman.

I'm an MP from the Eastern Townships, and I want to point out that co-operative housing buildings in the Eastern Townships are recognized and serve as models. In fact, I'd like to acknowledge the executive director of their federation, Mr. Guillaume Brien.

I talked about Racine earlier and said the mayor would like to have more information about Build Canada Homes. There's a wonderful seniors' home in Racine, a housing co-operative called La Brunante. It even went to the World Health Organization to show how this co-operative housing model for seniors can have a significant impact on seniors' health, both mental or physical. Thank you for allowing me to tip my hat to them.

Speaking of seniors, something else you said is music to my ears. You said seniors' fixed incomes is such they can't afford adequate housing. I know this goes beyond the bill, but it's a reality. Housing for seniors and food are the two things that were hit the hardest by inflation in recent years. Meanwhile, fixed incomes and pensions haven't kept up. That's why we talk about fixed incomes. We talk about housing, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on reviewing the income model for seniors, and ensuring pensions are better adapted to the current reality of the housing market.

For example, the old age security pension of those between 65 years of age and 74 years of age who need housing hasn't increased. It was only increased for those 75 or older. I thought one could find housing at 65 and not have to wait until they were 75 years old.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Larouche.

Now we'll go to the five-minute round, beginning with Ms. Falk for five minutes, please.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I would like to thank each of the witnesses for taking the time to be here today and sharing their experiences and expertise on this file.

I would like to start with Mr. Sullivan.

In the brief you submitted to this committee, you emphasized the importance of clear, measurable, outcome-based targets for Build Canada Homes. You identify their absence as a significant gap in Bill C-20. You touched on this in your opening remarks. I want to give you the opportunity to expand on that.

What types of specific targets did you and the organization expect to see in this legislation?

[Raymond Sullivan]

While it might not be appropriate to put the specific targets in the legislation, it is appropriate to put a mandate to create and publish targets and renew them on a regular basis for any Crown corporation with a specific mandate. Build Canada Homes was created to be nimble, to be flexible and to respond to the needs across the country, in every region of the country.

If you're going to be nimble and act quickly and be flexible, you need to know where you're heading. To know where you're heading, you need to know where that north star is. You need to know where your goals and targets are, and the Government of Canada needs to know what its goals and targets are. That's why I think it's an important omission from the legislation that Build Canada Homes should be required to publish targets.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

During my tenure at the House of Commons and working on legislation, I've often heard a government say that they'll do the details in regulations. When we look at the accessibility act, for example, we brought forward a lot of things that weren't included. Then, when we did the review, we saw that it was brought up at that time but wasn't included.

I think it is important to hear those aspects of, I would say, the details. Maybe it's not appropriate for it to be in the legislation, but I think it's absolutely appropriate to have the conversations so that regulations are created to the benefit of Canadians. At the end of the day, that's what we're here to do—serve Canadians and hopefully make life easier and more affordable for them.

From your perspective, what challenges arise when a program of this scale is established without publicly stating those benchmarks? I used the example of the accessibility act, but regarding this bill, what could be some of the challenges of not being public when having these conversations?

[Raymond Sullivan]

A lot of our members, who have been doing fantastic work across the country building new non-market and community housing, are trying to understand where they fit in what Build Canada Homes is offering. Some do mixed-income housing. Some do near-market housing. Some do deeply affordable and supportive housing. However, without knowing how many units of each type for each income band Build Canada Homes is targeting, they're trying to figure out where they fit. Having that predictability, knowing that partner is there for you at the table, becomes very important when elaborating on a program of development.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

I guess the absence of clear targets affects the planning. Is that...?

[Raymond Sullivan]

I would add the timeline to that as well. Projects that Build Canada Homes is funding right now were projects in the non-market sector that were conceived of under CMHC programs, so they were oriented toward those programs. New opportunities that are presenting themselves today are projects that will be in the ground four and five years from now, but we don't know how to orient ourselves toward those opportunities because we don't know what funding and financing will be available from Build Canada Homes, or other sources, four and five years from now. That long timeline and that predictability—knowing where to attach our targets and those north stars—are very important at the earliest stages of a development project.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

I could see too how, for Canadians.... I actually just spoke with a young woman in her early thirties, who said, “I guess we're just never going to have a house. We're just never going to have one.” When you say, “four or five years”, that's a drop in the bucket in this place, but for that young couple who's in their twenties or thirties, those four or five years are very important—and for lots of reasons. Is that not right? When you're younger, technically or historically, that's when you're able to make the most money to live, invest in your future, have children and grow a family, so that matters. I could see the importance of making sure that we have those clear timelines, but also, at this stage at the committee, identifying those gaps and making sure they're filled.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Falk.

We will now move to Mr. Joseph for five minutes.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Since we're talking about affordable homes for seniors, I'd like to point out I recently inaugurated 100 seniors housing units in Longueuil, in connection with Mission Unitaînés. Soon, it may be my colleague Ms. Larouche's turn to inaugurate housing units on Robitaille Street, in Granby. That's what co-operation with the federal government looks like; it takes work.

Mr. Sullivan, what main opportunity do you think Bill C‑20 creates to deal with the country's housing crisis?

[Raymond Sullivan]

Thank you, Mr. Joseph.

One important thing about Build Canada Homes is that it's built specifically to target non-market community housing. This is why I think it's important that the legislation also reflects that mandate.

One superpower of the federal government in this space is the ability to do direct lending. No other order of government has the same power to provide the same below-market rates. That was a very important shift eight years ago with the national housing strategy. I hope it will be improved with Build Canada Homes, with new flexibilities that were not available to CMHC. I think the greatest opportunity with Build Canada Homes is low-cost finance.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Sullivan, do you think that, by making Build Canada Homes a Crown corporation, Bill C‑20 promotes a more stable and predictable framework?