Human Resources Committee on June 11th, 2026

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Irwin and Ms. Whitzman, for joining us to discuss a topic at the heart of a fundamental human need: having a roof over one's head and adequate housing.

You both cited a lot of figures.

Ms. Whitzman, I would like to come back to one of the figures you mentioned.

You spoke about the 20% target for off-market housing. The media are reporting record numbers of evictions and people ending up on the streets, particularly seniors whose fixed incomes can no longer keep up with rising rents.

I know you mentioned many approaches, but I would like to revisit this. This 20% target for off-market housing is often seen as a way to address what's known as the commodification of housing. In fact, several organizations are calling for it.

Could you summarize the main steps we should take to achieve this 20% target for off-market housing?

Could you elaborate on these potential solutions?

In my view, this is rather central to the housing issues we are facing right now.

[Carolyn Whitzman]

Thank you, Ms. Larouche.

I think it's really important to learn from countries that have better outcomes than Canada. One country that I'm thinking of in that regard is France.

In the year 2000, which was 26 years ago, the Government of France created a target for all municipalities of 20% non-market housing, and of course, it created the finance instruments for new builds, renovations and acquisitions.

The amount of non-market housing in France has since more than doubled. It was 9%, and now it's above 18%. In Paris, it's close to 25%, and of course, Paris is the most expensive city in France, partly because Paris took on a voluntary target of 30%.

Those targets haven't changed as governments in France have changed. The financing methods haven't changed as governments in France have changed. That, to me, would be an example of clear direction.

In terms of outcomes, 15% of low-income renters are still in unaffordable housing, which is too much. It's over 75% in Canada. That shows you the difference that clear targets and certainly a clear definition of affordability and programs make at the national level.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

It's interesting to see which projects are working around the world.

Mr. Irwin, Ms. Whitzman just spoke about the French model.

Have you had the opportunity to examine other international models concerning, among other things, the issue of off-market housing as a way to address the commodification of housing?

[Tony Irwin]

Admittedly, I'm not as knowledgeable on that as Dr. Whitzman. My time is spent much more on issues at home than abroad.

I do follow it some, but admittedly, I'm not as knowledgeable as Dr. Whitzman on that topic.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You talked about what works. You mentioned, for example, the $7‑billion investment in the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, as well as the mortgage program.

You also talked about the need for investments in Build Canada Homes.

You gave several examples. Can you elaborate on what is working well and what needs to be improved?

[Tony Irwin]

In terms of some of the current programs and policies that we're speaking about, I think, like all of these things, when we see government programs, we have to, first of all, see them over the finish line, see all the different details of them and see them actually working, see them in practice.

The things we're talking about are, for example, the recent development charge announcement between the federal government and the Province of Ontario. I know other announcements have been made with the Government of Quebec, for example, recently as well. It's a bit different, obviously, but they're using the same funding envelope for that. We need to see that actually in practice now to understand how effective it will be.

In Ontario, municipalities have to opt into the program. They have a very tight timeline to do that. We certainly hope municipalities will be able to actually.... I think it's fair to say that once some of these programs are actually in place, really it's up to, in that case, municipalities, but also it's up to those who build rental housing. We now need to step up. We now need to step up and actually go forward, and hopefully hold up our end of this in these scenarios, which is to find viable projects, work with our different partners and get shovels in the ground.

With a lot of these programs, we need to see them actually implemented to know how effective they will be. On some of the most recent things I talked about, we still need the benefit of time to understand how effective they will be. I am hopeful.

Dr. Whitzman talked about development charges, growth needing to pay for growth. I agree with that, but I think there's an acknowledgement amongst many of us that the formula, the manner in which that's been working, has not been working, or the manner in which that's been structured has not been working for some time.

We need to come up with different, creative ways to ensure that infrastructure is built and paid for without unduly creating undue hardships on municipal governments, who perhaps can't weather that so easily. We need to figure out ways to do that, that work for everyone, that actually help us get the housing built that Canadians need, that do meet different budgets, that can be affordable for more perhaps than they do today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Larouche.

Mrs. Goodridge for five minutes.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

A year ago, the Liberal Prime Minister said that we were going to build at unimaginable speeds.

Really quickly, Dr. Whitzman, has that been the reality of what you've seen in your research for the last year?

[Carolyn Whitzman]

Clearly, that's not happening. I think there's still a great deal of uncertainty around housing policy. There's been a great deal of energy spent building up Build Canada Homes.

While I have generally positive support for the idea of Build Canada Homes, it needs to be backed up with better finance mechanisms, a much clearer idea of how much non-market perpetually affordable housing should be built, I would say, with free government land and in many cases deferral of development charges, for instance. The aim should be 100% affordable for low to median income, which is a majority of Canadians.

I think there's been a certain amount of focus on establishment and deals made, which is great. It's a big shift for a lot of developers. I think it needs to settle down, become a lot more certain and a lot more clearly linked to those very noble outcomes of more housing in order to work better.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

One of my biggest concerns, and the biggest concern of a lot of Conservatives, has been that they're just building more bureaucracy. They're building another layer onto a layer. No one from the Liberal side has been able to explain what Build Canada Homes is going to do that CMHC and the Canada Lands Company couldn't have already done. This is one of those pieces...why they couldn't have created some change. All I've seen from my lens is further delays, because now people don't know where to go to apply for the next big project for affordable housing. They don't know who to talk to or what the process looks like, which means further delays in getting people into those houses.

I'm from Fort McMurray. I've seen booms my entire life. I've seen boom, bust, boom and bust. I thought this was normal. It turns out that it's not normal for most people across Canada. I've seen a community that's been able to rise to the occasion and get things built. It really bothers me that this government promised to get things built, yet we've seen, effectively, no completions, just lots of announcements and reannouncements.

Mr. Irwin, what are you seeing in the rental space? Are you seeing completions come through because of Build Canada Homes?

[Tony Irwin]

No, but I would say again that Build Canada Homes is obviously quite new. We're all trying to understand how it's going to work and navigate the investment criteria and the portal. We have members engaging with Build Canada Homes. They are talking to them and other non-profits to see if they can, in fact, move projects forward. In that sense, I know there's activity.

To the point of your question, are we seeing starts yet? No, we're not.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

We're not seeing starts, and we're not seeing completions.

[Tony Irwin]

Through that program, no, we're not seeing it, but it would not be realistic to assume that we would at this point.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Okay.

If they had simply put that power into CMHC, which already existed, could you have reasonably seen starts happen in the last year? We've seen, effectively, nothing in the last year, despite promises of moving at unimaginable speeds. We assumed that meant fast, not unimaginably slow.

[Tony Irwin]

Again, recognizing that different regions have different experiences, when I speak to members who are trying to build rental apartments in places like Toronto or Vancouver, irrespective of whatever agency we're talking about—set that aside—I ask them, “For the projects you've been able to get in the ground now, what did you need to make that happen?” They say that it's things like not paying GST, having ACLP financing or having full development charges waived. Those are what made them—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

On the GST piece, so far, the government decided they would do that for Ontario but not anywhere else.

Do you think removing the GST on new homes built would be a good idea to help reduce costs?

[Tony Irwin]

For new rental housing, we have that for more than just Ontario. That was announced by the Trudeau government a few years ago. I believe it exists in more than just Ontario. That's my area.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Okay. That's for rental housing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Goodridge.

Ms. Fancy, go ahead for five minutes.

[Jessica Fancy-Landry, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you very much.

Through you, Chair, I thank Mr. Irwin and Ms. Whitzman.

Again, it feels like we're coming full circle in some ways. I remember having some questions for you that I never got to ask last time. I want to pick up on some of them, as well as starts.

Ms. Whitzman, you talked a lot about the missing middle in your book Home Truths. I'd like to talk about the missing middle today in terms of a couple of population demographics.

A lot of our housing conversation here is focused more on urban areas. As a steadfast rural advocate, I'd like to ask about how the missing middle challenge differs in small towns and rural or smaller communities.

What do you feel federal policies could do to help address some of these unique needs? I know, through Build Canada Homes, that some smaller communities were a bit resistant in terms of carve-outs or how much attention they were going to get. I'm looking at whether there are policies we could be using to help support some of our smaller and rural communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Wait just a moment before you respond.

Is that the opening of the House? Are the bells ringing?

[An hon. member]

The bells are ringing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

It's a 30-minute bell.

What's the will of the committee? I need unanimous consent to continue.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Okay, we will continue.

We're in West Block. How about agreeing to continue for 20 minutes? That leaves 10 minutes.

Thank you, committee members.