Human Resources Committee on Oct. 20th, 2026

[Michael MacPhee]

Absolutely, there are risks, and this is the case not only in Quebec but across the country, given that the provinces and territories are responsible.

So, what we are trying to do is add to what already exists. For example, in the province of Quebec, this concerns the way in which the union training and innovation program, or UTIP, is implemented. Since 2017, we have negotiated two multi-year bilateral agreements with Quebec. These agreements recognize the specific characteristics of Quebec's apprenticeship system, while enabling us to achieve our federal objectives. In other words, UTIP funds are channelled through the Quebec school system, in line with how the apprenticeship system operates in the province.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

We also know that needs, in terms of the labour market, vary greatly from one region to another. So, how do you view the harmonization proposed in this bill? Given that needs are so different, this harmonization may not lead to an improvement for everyone. Are there some who might not necessarily see an improvement in their labour force needs? Is that a risk, too?

[Michael MacPhee]

When it comes to the labour market, conditions always vary from one end of the country to the other. You are absolutely right. What we often see is that the shortages in one region are not the same as those found across the country.

Overall, we know there is a shortage of skilled labour. As I said at the start, there are around 1.4 million jobs set to become available over the next eight years. So, for us, it's about working with all the provinces, bringing them together so that they can collaborate and find ways to support labour mobility without losing their employees.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Another point we have heard regarding this bill is the issue of the proposed timetables. We are talking precisely about harmonization and ensuring effective implementation. Are you concerned that the deadlines set out in the bill are too short to allow for effective implementation?

Ms. Arsenault or Mr. MacPhee, do you have anything to add on the issue of deadlines?

[Jacinthe Arsenault]

You're referring to the nine-month time frame, aren't you? In fact, we are already conducting consultations. We are already working with the provinces through the Forum of Labour Market Ministers and the Canadian Council of Directors of Apprenticeship. So we are already involved in this. Nine months—it's true that it will be here before we know it—but I think it's achievable.

[Michael MacPhee]

We'll continue afterward as well.

[Jacinthe Arsenault]

Yes, we'll continue.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Given that you've already started consultations and can continue afterward, I gather you don't think it's too short a timeline for everything that needs to be harmonized. As was pointed out, this area of jurisdiction belongs to the provinces and territories, and labour market needs vary. Do you think nine months is enough time to harmonize and bring everything together?

[Michael MacPhee]

The nine‑month time frame isn't for harmonization; it's for creating the national framework.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Okay.

That's fine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Larouche.

We will go to Mr. Reynolds for five minutes.

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming today.

The national Red Seal standard program has been in place for decades. I personally have been a Red Seal electrician for over 20 years. Being a Red Seal, I have the ability to move interprovincially without a problem.

After this bill is implemented, what will be different from what we have today or different from the last 20-plus years that the Red Seal program has been in place?

[Michael MacPhee]

In fact, the next year is the 75th anniversary of the Red Seal. You're absolutely right that it has been around for an extended period of time, and it's a great foundation upon which to build.

As I've previously stated, the value proposition of the bill is in creating that framework and that opportunity to report to Parliament to raise concerns or preoccupations as we move things forward. The Canadian council of directors of apprenticeship is already doing work in this space in a very collaborative way to move things forward—

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

That's the governing body that brought in the Red Seal initially. That's also the governing body that controls all the education, programming and requirements to get to the Red Seal.

Apprentices are currently beholden to their respective provinces when they're signed in to the apprenticeship program. I was an apprentice in Manitoba and I couldn't leave the province until I could get my Red Seal. I couldn't move from one province to another, even just for a job—not necessarily changing my residence, but just to work in another province as an apprentice. People can't actually do that.

What consultations have you been having? In this bill, is there anything that is going to entice the provinces to move in that direction?

[Michael MacPhee]

It's an excellent point that labour mobility is important for apprentices, as it allows them to follow the work. That's one of the pieces of discussion that we are having right now with the provinces and territories. It's to see if there are ways or mechanisms to allow for mobility through transferability, not just for a Red Seal certification but for progression in that space from province to province. We're having discussions in that space.

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

In your round-table discussions, have you involved the CCDA and the provincial authorities that govern the apprenticeship programs?

[Michael MacPhee]

Yes, we have.

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

What kind of feedback have you had from them? Is there appetite to participate? Is this bill going to be the thing that gets them to the table to standardize that?

[Michael MacPhee]

The unique aspect of the CCDA that I would highlight is that it is, in some ways, a coalition of the willing. These directors of apprenticeship from across the country see the value of a harmonized and standardized approach to allow for labour mobility and to allow employers to understand that the person they're hiring, regardless of where they received their training, has achieved a certain standard.

In the CCDA, you have a group that very much sees the value and importance of continuing that work of harmonizing, progressing and creating standards that are sustainable and achievable across the country.

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

What other stakeholder feedback have you had in your round tables and consultations? What are the barriers that they've been bringing forward to you in your consultations?

[Michael MacPhee]

One of the key things that we've been talking about with all stakeholders is the state of play of apprenticeship progression right now.

Your average Red Seal apprenticeship program should last four years, but 32% of individuals are achieving Red Seal certification in six years. On a four-year basis, it's only about 18%. We have very low progression rates, so a big preoccupation is about how we engage not just provinces and territories but also employers and all stakeholders to more effectively support that progression.

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

One of the issues with that is going to be work. Unlike most other professions....

Funding apprenticeships without employment is putting the cart before the horse. If there aren't jobs for them to go to.... For most apprenticeships, you need to work about 1,800 hours per level to complete that level. If there aren't any jobs for them to go to, they can't continue to progress, unlike the case with a university degree or another profession. You can pretrain people to do the job, but apprenticeship doesn't really work like that. I'm sure that's probably a lot of your issue with the completion rates.

[Michael MacPhee]

In fact, some of the bigger issues with completion rates are the constraints associated with training capacity. There are thousands and thousands of individuals on waiting lists to complete their next stage of apprenticeship training. That is one of the key elements that we're trying to address more globally.

One of the other key elements is those individuals who go on block-release training. They have to leave their employment to take eight or 10 weeks of training. That financial hit means that they have to plan a little more.

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you for your generosity, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Those were very valid questions. They raised interesting points that I was not aware of. Thank you.

Mr. Joseph, you have the floor for five minutes.