Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 7th, 2006

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

It does seem like a very inconsistent situation when some refugees are being charged and others aren't, and it is a significant cost.

I wanted to ask you, Minister, about another thing, and you'll forgive me if I highlight something from my own constituency. There was a proposal put forward by the City of Burnaby to develop a multi-service hub for immigration and refugee services, and the city has come forward with a contribution of land for this proposal. It comes out of the city's determination to deal with the fact that Burnaby is now the settlement destination of almost 40% of immigrants and refugees to British Columbia. It comes out of the problems that many folks working in settlement and immigration services find, where there is lots of duplication of services, where translators are often in very short supply with some of the more unusual languages that folks are coming with now, especially given the particular refugee program that we have now. Just given the difficulty of keeping track of folks, it would make a lot of sense to put all these services in the same place.

I know the federal government has had a reticence to get involved in capital projects, but this one seems like such a winner to me on so many levels, I'm wondering if you and the government might reconsider your decision not to support this project.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

First of all, you wouldn't be a very good MP if you didn't raise issues that affected your riding.

Right now we're dramatically increasing funding overall to the provinces, including B.C. B.C. makes decisions about how to spend that money, so I think there's an avenue there for you to pursue this further.

I am reluctant to get into providing those kinds of capital projects. I think the better role for the federal government is to provide funding so that provinces and settlement agencies can do what they do best and know best, which is how to make sure that people do get the outcomes they need.

I appreciate your situation in Vancouver and Burnaby. You do welcome a lot of new people into the country. It's a difficult situation. We're always willing to talk, but I think the best way for us to help is to continue to provide money directly to the groups that are committed at a real heart level to helping people, and I think we'll get results that way.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Minister, I hope you'll take another look at it, because I think there are efficiencies in that kind of system. I think that kind of infrastructure would make sense not just in Burnaby, but in communities all across the country, and it would be a real boost to the folks actually providing these services to have that kind of close contact with each other in that kind of facility.

Thank you for your consideration of it, in any case.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Bill.

I will go to Andrew, and then to Mr. Jaffer.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Let me just touch on a couple of things.

In terms of 80% of the cases of the Federal Court relating to immigration matters, Minister, that's one of the points about having appeals. We heard that from witnesses in front of this committee. Essentially what they said was, if we had a fairer system, fewer of those cases would end up in Federal Court. Another benefit is that it would make decision-making a lot more uniform, which we don't have now. So I certainly hope you go back on that.

The other issue--and I think this is a problem--is that we talked about the shortage of workers in this country, particularly in your home province. One of the reasons we have this problem is that the point system really doesn't allow people who the economy needs to come into this country. When we went to the point system, I was very much opposed to that. The committee, across party lines, was opposed to it.

What we have now is a situation where, depending upon whose numbers you listen to, we have 200,000 to 500,000 people in this country who are undocumented, and most of them are in the workforce. There is a real tragedy around this, because I think in the last election your party inadvertently said we were going to get tough on deportation, and now many of the undocumented workers are getting caught up in it.

There are about 3,000 criminals in that category that we have to move heaven and earth collectively to get rid of, but I think you want to take a look at the undocumented workers, because as you mentioned, immigrants coming into the country now maybe aren't doing as well. I can tell you that a tradesperson who is needed in a shop is doing quite well, and that person is undocumented too.

To put it in proper perspective, in the big picture, if Frank Stronach came to this country today--he came here in 1952 or 1954--he would not get in. If Frank Hasenfratz, who has Linamar, which has 10,000 employees, were to come to this country today, he would not get in. The one we might be more familiar with in the sense of being more contemporary with us--we all use the BlackBerry--is that if Mike Lazaridis' father came to this country today--he came here in the mid-1960s as an apprentice tradesperson--he would not get in.

There is a real disconnect between what the economy needs and who we're letting in. So on the one hand, you have doctors, physicians, driving taxis, who can't get licensed. On the other hand, you have people who the economy does need who are working underground.

I'm hoping we're going to look at the United States. They're undergoing regularization. I think we can do something similar, and we could all work together in that regard. I hope, Minister, that you will take a look at that.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

First of all, I agree that the most important thing that people bring to this country is not their skills. I think it is their initiative and their desire to get ahead.

All of us sitting around this table come from immigrant stock. My family wouldn't have made it in here under the current rules. I agree with you. We have to find a way to make sure that people don't necessarily have to have a PhD or a degree of some kind to get in here.

We need them not just because we want them to go to work in the labour markets, but because, as you correctly point out, a lot of these people, just by virtue of making the decision to come here and leave their home country, show enormous courage and initiative, and we want to somehow harness that. So you're right, we do have to find a way to accommodate people like that.

On the issue of undocumented workers, I won't commit to your numbers. The numbers I hear are a little lower. Nevertheless, I take your point that in some cases they are doing extraordinarily well. The problem I have as minister is that I have to ensure that the integrity of the system is upheld.

If you somehow suggest that we're going to allow regularization, you're sending a message that you should come to Canada now because you're going to get in. Some countries we don't have visas with. In other situations, people are able to get here in other ways. I don't think there's any question that there would be some kind of a pull factor.

I would like to work with the committee to talk about ways to make it easier for people with different skills to get here, or just people who have hard hands, as they used to say, and a desire to get ahead.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Andrew.

Mr. Jaffer.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, it's nice to see you back here again. Make it a habit, because it's always a pleasure to have you here at the committee.

I want to ask a couple of things.

We've been dealing with the issue, as you know, in Alberta, of labour shortage in almost every area of the economy. I've raised this before, and I know much of the time the focus has been on skilled workers, often associated with the oil patch or other areas. In the main estimates, is there any thought or specific support for the attraction, retention, as well as integration of other sectors of the economy?

With my background being in the service industry, I'm hearing of nightmares in that particular industry. So it's something we seriously have to look at, not just for specifically skilled workers but skilled workers in other industries that may not have registered yet at HRSDC.

I know it's their problem to some extent, but what can be done from your end to integrate this problem?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

As an Albertan, I see it in my own community every day, and I would say two things about that.

First of all, we do have to work with HRSDC regarding labour market opinions and finding a way to ensure that when there are legitimate labour shortages, we can meet them, because when you don't, you hold back the entire country. Right now, we have $120 billion in projects in the oil sands alone--and I don't know how much in the rest of Alberta--$89 billion in B.C., and who knows what elsewhere, that are delayed because we can't find workers, and then there are all the service sector industries you've described. When they aren't successful, the country suffers.

The second thing, though, is that some provinces are doing some things with the provincial nominee program. For instance, in Manitoba, at one of the meat packing plants there, they're using the temporary foreign worker program to bring in 150 Chinese, and they've made the commitment to use the provincial nominee program to make them permanent residents at the end of that, providing they meet some standards, and deal with some of their labour problems that way. I think there's some potential for other provinces to use this model.

I don't want to duck my responsibility. We have to do a better job with respect to orienting our immigration policy to address labour market needs. It means working with HRSDC, and it requires us talking about general labourers and people in the service sector as well as people with skills that are better recognized.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I hope you can try to encourage our minister for HRSDC to actually do that. I know you are concerned, but--

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

She doesn't need to be encouraged. I know she's working on this. We've talked about it. I know she's very anxious to try to help address those issues.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay, good.

With respect to the provincial nominee program, I know we spoke about that before. It seems to be a good way to be able to focus and attract the people we need provincially.

What impacts do the main estimates have in respect of the development and expansion of the provincial nominee programs?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

The main estimates don't really say too much about that. A lot of the resources required to make the PNP work are provincial resources, because they have to put in place an office so that they can identify people who they would like to bring to their provinces and make sure they meet some standards that the provinces set.

Our job, once they identify who they want to have come, is to make sure they meet medical and security standards. If they do, then we fast-track them.

The provincial nominee program has been growing quite quickly. A few years ago, there were only 2,000 people brought in; today, there are 8,000. Manitoba alone brings in 4,600 people a year and are very progressive with it, and other provinces are starting to get on board and do more with it.

I think there's potential to get some things done where the provinces uniquely recognize their needs in a way that maybe the federal government doesn't, and it's a good way for them to address those needs.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Concerning another question I have, I know you mentioned language training and settlement money that's set aside, and you talked about getting tangible results. I'm curious as to how you plan, as a department, to assess those results in language training, or at least the effectiveness that this money is going to have on the ground for settlement or language training, or whatever it may be. Do you have some ideas for that, or do you have something in place for that?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

There are agreements. When we strike agreements with the provinces with respect to this money, one of the things we have is an accountability framework to make sure the money gets spent properly, obviously, but also to make sure we get some results. Depending on where we're at with respect to individual provinces, the agreements are going to be different because they came in at different times and different arrangements were made.

Obviously, we keep monitoring all these programs to make sure we start to improve on the disappointing record we've seen, which is that people today are not doing as well.

Not long ago, I was with the finance committee. When I was in opposition, I remember hearing from someone with a settlement organization in Toronto who told me their numbers showed the average immigrant in Toronto with a degree, after one year, was making $20,000. That is unacceptable and we've got to do better.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Minister.

I will now go to Madame Folco.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I dispute the figures that my colleague Barry Devolin provided a little earlier. I have no idea where he got them, and I feel obliged to respond to him. With the help of my colleague Andrew Telegdi, I'd like to provide these figures, for television and also for the minutes of these meetings.

First of all, in the nine years from 1985 to 1993 when the Conservatives were in power, 1,583,000 persons were admitted to Canada as immigrants, an average of 175,947 persons—let's say 176,000 persons—a year, under the Conservative government. If we calculate an average for the 12 years of Liberal rule—that's 12 years compared to 9 years—we get 2,668,000 persons. Of course, there's a difference of three years there. However, the average number of immigrants entering Canada under the Liberal regime was 220,323 a year, a difference in favour of the Liberals. Under the Liberal regime, there were 46,376 more landed immigrants each year than under the Conservative regime.

I'd also like to emphasize another point, with the help of my colleague Andrew Telegdi. It's being said that, under the Liberal government, we didn't achieve our immigration objectives. When you refer to Citizenship and Immigration Canada's website—and that's where my figures also come from—you can see that, in 2000, when we set the objective of taking in between 200,000 and 225,000 persons, we accepted more than 227,000. I won't talk about each year, since I know that the chairman will cut me off. Every year between 2000 and 2005, we exceeded the minimum that we had set, which was either 200,000 or 225,000 persons. Sometimes, we even exceeded the maximum objectives that we had set. In 2005, the objective was to take in between 220,000 and 245,000 persons, and we achieved an immigration rate of 262,191 persons.

I got those figures from Citizenship and Immigration Canada's website. That's not aimed directly at you, Minister, obviously, but I felt we had to have concrete and true figures.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You do have two more minutes left, so if you want to pursue another question, please feel free to do so.

Do you have one more question, or will I move on to...?

Okay, Blair, feel free. You've got two minutes, roughly.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

You're talking about what's acceptable and what's not acceptable, and I would say it's completely unacceptable to have a target that is less than the numbers we achieved last year, unless your policy is to decrease the number of immigrants we allow into Canada.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I would point out that the target was set by the previous government, the party you belong to, so the resources were premised on those numbers.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Excuse me, 262,000 people were allowed into Canada; that's spending $833 million. Now we want to have 7,000 fewer people but spend $1.2 billion. So every immigrant you keep out of Canada is costing us about $40 million in your increased budget.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I point out again, the target was set by the previous government and the resources that were allocated were premised on those numbers. It's not good enough to simply talk about bald numbers; we have to talk about outcomes, which is why the big increase in spending is designed to get better outcomes.

As I pointed out, since 1996 the money that was allocated for settlement funding has been frozen, meaning that settlement agencies, as my friend Mr. Siksay has pointed out, have had to make do with less and less and have had to lay people off. The goal is not just to get boxcar numbers, but to make sure that people have better outcomes and end up doing better.

That's what we're aiming for.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

I agree fully with your goals and the outcomes, but you have nothing to measure them against. You're using 10-year-old data as a base mark.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

As I pointed out before, we have other data, and we can provide you with that. As I said when I was on the finance committee last year--and this is a very typical story--there are just too many situations where people with degrees come in but they cannot get jobs worthy of their education, and we have to fix that. The statistic from the Toronto settlement agency that I referred to was that these people have incomes of $20,000 or less after a year. That's just way too low, given their learning.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Blair.

Madam Deschamps or Madam Faille.