Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 17th, 2006

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

As I said, I know you've had some great challenges. There's no doubt about it. The concern about how the board was functioning and its ability to operate without political influence was one of the things I remembered hearing even before I got involved in politics--and that was before 1997. So I'm pleased to hear that things are finally going to change and that they're heading on the right track. In the end, that's what it comes down to. I think my colleague was simply asking about that.

Obviously in a transition there are going to be delays. Clearly, we want to restrict the backlog, which I think is in the interest of all Canadians. We want to be able to do that with the best possible people in place. Even though there is a bit of a backlog now, and there have been some delays in the employment, do you see it progressing, at least? Do you see maybe--

[Jean-Guy Fleury]

I'm hopeful. There is a transition. The appointment and selection process is very complex and sophisticated. You get new staff, and you have new staff in the central agencies. Whatever it is, it is change, so you're bound to that. And it's been like that for different transitions. But it is getting serious.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I just want to say that I know you've gone through some challenging times recently with some of these characters you're dealing with.

I wish you continued success. I hope we can finally clean up this process that I think has been needing amendment for quite some time.

[Jean-Guy Fleury]

I hope so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Rahim. I admire your timing.

Madame Faille, please.

Are you next? Do you have some questions?

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

No. I thought it was Barry, who hasn't spoken.

Barry spoke? Okay.

Actually, I do not have any further questions, since the other questions I wanted to ask directly concern the Department.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay. We can get back to you momentarily, if you want some time to collect your thoughts.

In the meantime, we can just reverse the order around and go to Barry, and then back to you or over to....

Anyway, Barry is next on the list. So Barry and then Bill.

[Barry Devolin, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you.

There are two separate issues I see here, which are commingled. One is that when you're looking for qualified candidates to fill this contingent of 150 or 160 people, what's the pool you draw from? I think we would agree that all Canadians should eligibly be part of that pool.

Having said that, theoretically you could restrict that pool only to people who live in Ontario, and you could probably find 160. You could restrict it to those over 40 years of age and find 160, or under 40 years of age and find--

[Jean-Guy Fleury]

You'd have difficulty with the charter.

[Barry Devolin, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

No, no, I'm not suggesting we do this; I'm just saying that theoretically you don't need a pool of 30 million people to draw from.

I think this is one of the issues we need to address as a government. We need to not only make it the reality but also to create the public perception that all Canadians have an equal opportunity to pursue a position in this sort of a tribunal and that there's no one at the front end who says that to get on the list to be considered you need to come through some gatekeeper. I think that's a legitimate point. That's not to say that the people who got past the gatekeepers were incompetent; that's just to say that if that starts to colour the perception of how the organization works.... I think this is the point you were making about eight years ago, that if the public perception is that who you know is critically important to whether you get on or not, that is a problem.

That's why, quite frankly, I think the decision to advertise publicly was a good one. I know you agree with that.

I was interested in your suggestion that reappointment should be at the decision of the chair rather than the minister of the government, because it makes it a competency in terms of doing your job, as opposed to a political issue again. On that basis, I guess there are other organizations that function in that way. One way you can determine if the reappointment process is working is whether people have ever failed to be reappointed, which suggests there actually is due diligence.

So when the competency test was applied to the sitting members--kind of after the fact--did any of them fail that test?

[Jean-Guy Fleury]

Yes.

[Barry Devolin, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

So there were people who were on the board who failed. Could you elaborate on that?

[Jean-Guy Fleury]

Yes, I can. You used the word “fail”; I would say that some did not meet the requirements. It was a group that I could handle. We could manage. In some instances the individuals were arriving at the end of their ten-year mandate, so that was it. In some instances I did not recommend the reappointment when the reappointment came. The third thing we did was set up a training program for those who were not missing by much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

We only have five minutes in all; I'm trying to complete the round, so I've given you three minutes, Barry, and this will be the last couple of minutes, because we have business to conduct.

I'm going to give a couple of minutes to Bill. That will complete the whole process. Bill, please go ahead.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Fleury, if you don't recommend somebody for reappointment, can they still be reappointed?

[Jean-Guy Fleury]

Oh, yes; it's a recommendation.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Has that happened?

[Jean-Guy Fleury]

I'm going to talk over four years. Most of my recommendations for non-reappointment were accepted.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

But not all.

[Jean-Guy Fleury]

Not all.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

So some people who didn't meet the competence or criteria were reappointed in the time that you--

[Jean-Guy Fleury]

It was very seldom.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Can you tell us about how many?

[Jean-Guy Fleury]

I would say probably two.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

I just want to be clear. You said earlier that since Minister Solberg took over, you've met with him approximately eight times?