Evidence of meeting #24 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was certificates.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alex Neve  Secretary General, English Speaking Section, Amnesty International Canada
Mary Foster  Member, Coalition for Justice for Adil Charkaoui
Procedural Clerk  Mr. Chad Mariage
Christian Legeais  Campaign Manager, Justice for Mohamed Harkat Committee
Mona El-Fouli  Wife of Mohamed Mahjoub, Campaign to Stop Secret Trials in Canada
Margaret Young  Committee Researcher

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

We'll bring our meeting to order.

As you recall, of course, at our last meeting we were considering the minister's supplementary estimates of 2006-2007. As you recall as well, we had already dealt with vote 1a, which had carried. Now we will go to votes 2a, 5a, and 10a.

CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION

Department

Vote 2a--Citizenship and Immigration – Pursuant to section 25(2) of the Financial Administration Act, to write-off from the Accounts of Canada 3,164 debts due to Her Majesty in Right of Canada amounting to $986,871 related to immigration loans issued pursuant to section 88 of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act – To authorize the transfer of $41,349 from Citizenship and Immigration Vote 1, Appropriation Act No. 1, 2006-2007 for the purposes of this Vote and to provide a further amount of..........$945,522

(Vote 2a agreed to)

Vote 5a--The grants listed in the Estimates..........$3,000,000

(Vote 5a agreed to)

Vote 10a--Program expenditures..........$3,820,070

(Vote 10a agreed to)

Shall I report the estimates to the House?

9 a.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Agreed.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

We can do that today.

9 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

That was fast. Now we can proceed with our study on detention centres and security certificates.

I would call the witnesses who are present here today to the table.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Mr. Chair, were you hoping for discussion on the estimates?

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

I'm calling the witnesses to the table for the study on detention centres and security certificates.

We welcome this morning witnesses from Amnesty International Canada, the Coalition for Justice for Adil Charkaoui, the Justice for Mohamed Harkat Committee, and the Campaign to Stop Secret Trials in Canada.

I don't believe we have all our witnesses present yet, but I do believe all of them have been contacted and will be here shortly.

Maybe we require a few minutes' recess until witnesses arrive.

9 a.m.

An hon. member

Mr. Chair, maybe we should check with security to make sure they're not delayed there.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Yes, that might be a good idea. Maybe somebody could check with security.

In the meantime, it's only a minute or two after nine, so maybe we can suspend for five minutes to allow witnesses the opportunity to get here. Thank you.

9:06 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Welcome back again, and welcome to our witnesses who are here this morning for our study on detention centres. As I said a moment ago, we welcome people from Amnesty International, the Coalition for Justice for Adil Charkaoui, the Justice for Mohamed Harkat Committee, and the Campaign to Stop Secret Trials in Canada.

For the witnesses' benefit, you probably know how our committee operates. You're given a five- or ten-minute period, or whatever you require, to make an opening statement, and then our committee members will ask questions, make comments, and what have you. I think we have from nine to eleven this morning, so feel free to begin whenever you want and to introduce the various people you have.

Welcome.

Whoever is the spokesperson for the group, you can begin. We're all ears.

9:06 a.m.

Alex Neve Secretary General, English Speaking Section, Amnesty International Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, committee members.

My name is Alex Neve. I'm the Secretary General of Amnesty International Canada's English branch, and it's a pleasure to be with you this morning.

For many years, and this goes back before the events of September 11 and the aftermath of September 11, which drew much needed attention to the issue of security certificates, Amnesty International has gone on record with the government expressing our very serious concerns about this particular aspect of Canada's immigration laws. We've highlighted that we think there are a number of very serious shortcomings in the process that fall far short of Canada's international human rights legal obligations. That's our particular focus: standards dealing with fair trials, arbitrary detention, discrimination, and protection from torture.

There are many human rights concerns, absolutely, as I mentioned. But we very much welcome your particular focus on detention, because in many respects it is one of the very serious aspects to this human rights tragedy, which doesn't get the attention it requires and is in some ways the aspect of the security certificate process that has the most debilitating human cost and human toll.

Over the past several years, more and more voices have joined in to highlight the serious human rights shortcomings and pressing for much needed human rights reforms. That's been led by the current detainees themselves, their families, lawyers, and support groups.

Notably, I want to draw to your attention as well that there has been concern about this at the international level. A growing number of United Nations human rights experts—and the committee is likely aware of this—have looked at this issue over the past several years and have called on Canada to change the system, including the United Nations Human Rights Committee and the United Nations Working Group on Arbitrary Detention, with very important reports from both late last year.

It is, then, a human rights concern that has been taken up at the global level, increasing the importance, I would say, of Canada's taking action to right the wrongs. Canadian failure to comply with UN-level human rights recommendations, on this or on any other issue, fails not only to remedy the particular concern at issue, but more broadly undermines the integrity and effectiveness of the UN human rights system, a system that Canada has helped to build and champion.

There is much at stake here: much at stake for the individuals whose human rights are on the line, and for their families, who of course have great concern and feel the effect as well, but more broadly with respect to the integrity of important human rights standards that Canada stands for nationally and internationally.

We all now have our eyes on the Supreme Court of Canada, with hope and expectation that the court's upcoming judgment in three of these cases will finally compel the government to act.

There are any number of detention-related issues that I'd like to be able to spend time going through with you today. I'm going to focus briefly on four particular aspects: issues regarding the treatment of detainees; some concerns around programming; some broader issues of discrimination; then I'm going to end very importantly with our concerns about the length of detention.

Let me begin with treatment. Since immigration detention is neither a prison nor a correctional sentence, the treatment of detainees should be as favourable as possible, and certainly not any less favourable than that of detainees who have been charged or are convicted prisoners.

I just highlight for the committee's information that this comes from international standards. There are a number of important international legal standards that govern detention. There are broad standards setting out the ban on arbitrary detention in international treaties, such as the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. But the UN has gone further and in a number of documents over the last 20 to 30 years has laid out detailed rules in a number of important instruments that give the specifics around treatment and conditions of detention. These include the Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners, the Body of Principles for the Protection of All Persons under Any Form of Detention or Imprisonment, and the United Nations Rules for the Protection of Juveniles Deprived of their Liberty.

We can certainly make sure that committee members get copies of those documents, if members are interested.

As well, like all detainees, those held in immigration detention are to be treated in a humane manner that respects the inherent dignity of the human person.

All of that comes from international standards.

Due to the non-criminal nature that's related to detention of this sort, the services, facilities, activities, and programs should seek to minimize the differences between life in detention and life at liberty. They must meet the individual needs of each detainee, taking into account their history, their age, their gender, and their cultural, religious, and linguistic identity. Of course, discrimination among detainees based on such grounds as race, colour, sex, language, religion, or political or other opinion is absolutely prohibited.

International legal standards also make it clear that is very important for prisoners to maintain reasonably good contact with the outside world. Above all, a prisoner must be given the means of safeguarding his or her relationships with family and close friends. The guiding principle should be the promotion of contact with the outside world. Any limitations upon such contact should be based exclusively and very strictly on security concerns of an appreciable nature. A minimum of weekly contact with family, friends, and the community should be facilitated through visits, through correspondence, and through telephone access for each detainee. Communication with the outside world should not be denied at any point for more than a few days at a time.

Despite these standards, the reality for security certificate detainees has been much different. For example, Hassan Almrei has no relatives in Canada. For the first two years of his detention at Metro Toronto West Detention Centre, he was not allowed to phone his family in Saudi Arabia. He was only allowed to make collect calls--he was not allowed to receive them--to people in Canada. About two years into his detention, an arrangement was made with a friend whereby he was finally able to do some three-way calling, using a phone card, to speak to family in Saudi Arabia. Since then he has been moved to the Kingston immigration holding centre, and three-way phone calls are not allowed. He is not allowed to phone his parents directly at all. It's our understanding that for the past six months now he has had no contact with his family.

While Hassan Almrei was at Metro West, he received visits almost every week, beginning in July of 2003, although they were limited to a maximum of 40 minutes. In the last six months, since moving to the Kingston immigration holding centre, he has been visited only three times.

Of course, this is an issue for all of the detainees. Visits to Kingston now take a full day and far more money than family and friends can afford, largely because of the distance. For many of the detainees' families, it's about two and a half hours each way.

I want to underscore that access to family visits is not just something nice but a fundamental right that is clearly enshrined in the international standards. It is not enough to say that visits can happen; for the right to be real, it must be effective. Authorities should take steps to address concerns about access to phone calls and the cost and distance of making family visits.

Let me move on to say a couple of words about programming. Security certificate detention is assumed--of course, the reality is different--to be a temporary status meant to facilitate the speedy removal of those designated by the government to pose serious security threats. However, the intention is far removed from reality. Several of the men in detention have been held for years as they wait for their removal. During that time, they have spent time in provincial correctional facilities before being moved to Kingston, more recently.

Serious concerns have been brought to the government's attention on numerous occasions about the lack of access to programming for these detainees. They had no programming at Metro West for over five years, in some instances. Immigration officials promised at various times to provide them with a library of books that they requested, but that didn't materialize.

Unlike Metro West, which at least allowed mail-order books to come in to the men, the Kingston immigration holding centre has been deducting the value of books that are sent in from the $1,500 yearly value of goods they are allowed to receive in total. There have been reports that they have held back many books and articles that were sent in, claiming that they needed to be checked as security threats.

Again, I'd draw to the committee's attention that there are international standards here that govern, for instance, the importance of having access to education and cultural materials from public sources, reasonable quantities of it, and subject only to reasonable and absolutely necessary conditions that are put in place to ensure security.

I'm worried about discrimination. In April 2006 the UN Human Rights Committee, in reviewing Canada's implementation of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, voiced particular concern over the use of security certificates under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, and, in particular, the mandatory detention of foreign nationals who are not permanent residents.

The Human Rights Committee report calls into question the automatic detention of all non-permanent-resident aliens under the security certificate process and the seeming hesitance of the Federal Court to grant bail, despite extraordinary guarantees being given. This raises serious issues of discrimination. It is a concern that Amnesty International has highlighted in our intervention before the Supreme Court.

The Human Rights Committee has previously affirmed that foreigners cannot be held merely on the basis of their status as non-nationals. They can't be treated differently only because of the kind of immigrant or nationality status they bear. This would be a clear violation of Canada's obligations under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. There can be no place for discrimination when decisions about detention, about denying someone's liberty rights, are being made.

Last, I want to turn to the question of the length of detention. One essential principle governing detention is that it can never be indefinite. Indefinite detention without end is not only unjust and arbitrary, in that it doesn't stem from a clear decision imposing an appropriate term of detention, but it is also of concern because of the very serious impact on the mental health of detainees. To not know when or if you will be liberated is agonizing, and as it extends can become so debilitating as to constitute torture or ill treatment. Amnesty International, UN human rights experts, the Red Cross, and other organizations have documented that concern in prisons all over the world. That is why indefinite detention is clearly prohibited under international law.

The men who are held under security certificates have often languished in detention for many, many years. This is where human rights concerns begin to overlap. International law is absolutely clear: no one can be deported to a situation where they face torture. Despite that clarity, Canada continues to insist that it is okay to deport certain individuals to situations of torture if they do pose security risks. That position has been frequently and roundly condemned, including last year by both the UN Human Rights Committee and the UN Committee Against Torture.

Canada's position is a setback in the crucial global struggle to eradicate torture, a concern that has become of increasing concern, I would say, to Canadians in the wake of cases such as that of Maher Arar.

Last month there was an important ruling from the Federal Court in the case of Mahmoud Jaballah, in which the judge very importantly affirmed and recognized the importance of the absolute ban on torture and took a decision that, given that there is a serious risk that he would face torture if returned to Egypt, his deportation cannot go ahead.

That is what sharply brings the human rights concerns into focus: no deportation to torture. So what is to happen? Detention without charge or trial simply still cannot be an option.

It is time now for Canada to realize that something has to be done about this, that immigration remedies are often not the road to pursue in these cases. Torture is often a likelihood in cases of this sort, but deportations don't further justice. If there were a case with serious concerns about active involvement in terrorism that came up in Canada, we would want—

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

May I interrupt for a moment? I'm wondering if any of the other witnesses will have opening statements as well, because you've gone into 15 minutes.

9:20 a.m.

Secretary General, English Speaking Section, Amnesty International Canada

Alex Neve

I'm over my ten minutes?

9:20 a.m.

A voice

Mine will be very short.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Which is quite all right. We don't mean to interrupt you, but I'm wondering. If everyone were to take 15 minutes, we'll be into a full hour. The other witnesses may probably only have short statements. Okay.

November 9th, 2006 / 9:20 a.m.

Secretary General, English Speaking Section, Amnesty International Canada

Alex Neve

I only have about 30 seconds more.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Okay. Thank you, sir.

9:20 a.m.

Secretary General, English Speaking Section, Amnesty International Canada

Alex Neve

I think the other point to recognize here, though, is that not only does deportation contribute to human rights abuses like torture, but it doesn't further justice. If there truly are serious security concerns with respect to an individual, deportation will almost inevitably mean that they simply walk away scot-free at the other end of a plane ride.

A different approach is needed. If there is evidence, Canada should be pursuing criminal prosecutions. Our laws allow it. Our laws should be used. If there is not and deportation is not possible, then release is what should be pursued.

This issue of length has been highlighted by the UN Commission on Human Rights, and this is where I'll end by bringing this to your attention. Last year probably the most specific recommendation they made to Canada in looking at security certificates was that it is necessary to legally set a maximum length for such detention. That's a glaring omission in Canada's laws at this point, and certainly advice and recommendations from this committee to the government on that point would be much appreciated.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you, Mr. Neve.

Ms. Foster.

9:20 a.m.

Mary Foster Member, Coalition for Justice for Adil Charkaoui

Good morning.

I'm a member of the Coalition for Justice for Adil Charkaoui. We're a group that formed a few days after the arrest of Mr. Charkaoui in Montreal, in May 2003. Since that time we've struggled to inform ourselves about the situation and the process he is being subjected to. We have engaged in a wide range of activities to bring to public attention the injustice that has been done to him and his family.

Most of the community members we have spoken to--very broadly, the community members of Montreal and other centres where we've spoken and done some of this public education work--have responded very openly to the concerns we raise. It's a fact that many members of the public are not aware of what's going on, and once they are aware of what's going on with Mr. Charkaoui and the others they are very supportive. We've enjoyed a great amount of community support, and I would characterize our group and the network surrounding it as the community response to the security certificate process.

The core of the question that we believe needs to be addressed is the issue of equality. The security certificate process is being applied only to people without legal status and full citizenship in Canada--permanent residents, refugees, and people who are applying for refugee status. This constitutes a situation of discrimination where people, on the basis of their legal status, are being subject to violations of their fundamental human rights to life, liberty, and security of the person.

We have not yet heard a satisfactory answer to why or how that discrimination can be justified--we do not believe it can be justified--and we think that is the core question that needs to be addressed in any solution to this problem that's put forward. Solutions and reforms that do not ensure that the equal treatment of non-citizens is guaranteed on issues of fundamental human rights simply do not go to the heart of the matter.

I hope you are acquainted with some of the ways in which the security certificate review process fails to meet international standards for a fair trial. I have put together a brief and some background information, which I would like to make available to members of the committee afterwards. It gives a short summary of six of the key ways in which security certificates do not meet the standards of a fair trial. I'll highlight three of them very briefly.

The standard of proof that's used in the security certificate process is “reasonable grounds to believe”. That is far lower than the criminal law standard of “beyond reasonable doubt”. It's certainly very low relative to what is at stake for the individual.

I would also like to highlight the fact that the information is famously withheld from the detainee and their lawyer. The secrecy of the evidence makes it impossible for people to respond to precise allegations in any meaningful way to defend themselves and clear their names.

As you know, if the judge upholds the certificate there is no appeal for that process, so judicial error cannot be remedied through an appeal process.

The failure of the legislation to provide adequate safeguards allows far too much room for error and abuse on the part of the Canadian intelligence services. We have no reason to believe that these agencies have made use of the discretion they enjoy in security certificate cases in a more responsible way than they have in the cases of Maher Arar, Abdullah Almalki, Ahmad El Maati, or Muayye Nureddin. There's no reason to believe that the discretionary power given to them by virtue of this flawed process is used in a more responsible way in the security certificate cases than in the cases that have undergone some form of public review.

Tolerating abuse and error on the part of intelligence agencies under this security certificate process serves the security of no one--on the contrary.

Without a fair trial, the imprisonment and detention we're talking about today is arbitrary. The same can be said of the conditions under which Mr. Charkaoui and Mr. Harkat have been released. If there is no fair trial, the loss of liberty they are subjected to is an arbitrary one. Mr. Charkaoui was released in February 2005 under conditions that Amnesty International has described as among the most restrictive ever imposed in Canada--and Mr. Harkat more so.

I believe that the committee will be given an opportunity to meet with Mr. Charkaoui on November 23 in Montreal. He will be able to describe in more detail the ways in which these conditions have impeded his and his family's right to work, enjoy leisure time, and freely practise their religion.

Detention under a security certificate is arbitrary and indefinite. It's being done under threat of being sent to a place where people risk torture or death. In the case of Mr. Charkaoui, in August 2003 it was assessed that if he were deported he would be at risk of torture, threat to life, and cruel and unusual punishment. This creates a situation that I can personally tell you is torture for him and his family every day.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Maybe witnesses can be a little more brief. There will be quite a lot of questioning, and some of your points can be made in response to questions.

Could I ask you to wind up in the next 30 seconds?

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Raymonde Folco Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC

Please excuse me Mr. Chair.

We have two cameras here. Could we find out who these people are and who they work for?

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Maybe the clerk can inform us.

9:30 a.m.

The Procedural Clerk Mr. Chad Mariage

They are from CTV and Carleton University.

On the notice that was sent around, it was amended that it was going to be videotaped.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Mr. Legeais.