Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 9th, 2006

[Mona El-Fouli]

No, they weren't to my knowledge, never.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

For the record, who is the individual who has caused your husband trouble in the holding centre? Who is the security guard? What is his or her name please?

[Mona El-Fouli]

I can give you the report.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Read it on the record, please.

[Mona El-Fouli]

You mean, in the immigration holding centre? It wasn't only in the immigration holding centre. It was also in the detention centre, where other guards have done something.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

But I mean the individual in Kingston who is fearing for your husband's life, and the individual who caused you difficulty when you visited.

[Mona El-Fouli]

Yes. His name is Mr. Van Duyse.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Do you know of his background? Do you know if he was in the Canadian military at all?

[Mona El-Fouli]

I am not aware of anything.

My husband was just asking for a cup of water. The man's face turned red. He was very angry and was talking in an aggressive way, and he just ran out of the room in a very unprofessional way.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Chair, for the record, I have received an e-mail from one of the guards, and I believe his name is the same. I will be bringing it to the attention of the committee next week.

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You have approximately one minute.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Neve, how would describe the situation in which the detainees are being held? Would you describe it as being as bad as Guantanamo Bay? Give us a sense of another international situation that's very similar and which we are condemning in Canada.

[Alex Neve]

There are similarities and differences, obviously, between the situation of security certificate detainees and what's happening at Guantanamo Bay. One could argue that at least the security certificate detainees have had access to some kind of legal process, as terribly flawed as it is, whereas of course many of the Guantanamo detainees have had access to nothing.

I think the similarity, though, is that both represent instances in which governments have chosen to pursue security practices that contravene a whole range of human rights obligations around detection protection, fair trial guarantees, the guarantee against torture and ill treatment, etc. That's where the similarity is.

I think it's really important to draw those connections to international examples. Where we want Canada's voice to be strong and credible in criticizing other abuses, we need to have a clean record at home.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Is there a situation similar to what we have in Kingston that the Canadian government has condemned, to your knowledge, outside our country?

[Alex Neve]

Unfortunately, Canada's voice on Guantanamo Bay has been rather mute.

I would actually draw a bit of a comparison to what's been happening to some of the Canadian citizens who have experienced torture and ill treatment abroad, people such as Maher Arar. Obviously, here we even have Canadian complicity, and Canada's condemnation of those instances has been a bit mixed at best, but it's an example of where this really comes close to home.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Neve.

Mr. Wilson, please.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses. As you know, the committee has had an opportunity to visit the Guantanamo Bay of the north, the Kingston Immigration Holding Centre, recently.

The government is in a difficult situation, as has been discussed, with the security certificates and how that relates to the individuals who are being held, as I believe the minister has said, in a three-walled jail where they're free to return to their own countries at any time. But as your testimony today evidenced, they face the risk of torture in the countries they have to go back to: Algeria, Morocco, Syria, or Egypt.

So on the one hand, to keep someone in detention indefinitely, or even for an extended period of time, raises significant concerns respecting fairness and liberty, as Ms. Foster said, but on the other hand that person represents or is alleged to represent an actual danger or a potential danger and a threat to the security of Canada. So at this point in time, based on the evidence that we have, or the secret evidence that has been put forward, there is a perceived threat there, and it would be unwise for the Canadian government to release these people into Canadian society.

If, on the one hand, removal from Canadian society is not an option, and on the other hand, there is a perceived threat to society, what options does the Government of Canada have to deal with situations like this?

If, Mr. Neve, as you said, the security certificate process needs to be reformed on a wholesale basis, what types of specific reforms would you be recommending to try to deal with the situation?

[Alex Neve]

I think there is a whole host of things that need to happen. Absolutely the process itself needs to be completely overhauled to ensure that it means fair trial standards, which obviously involves issues around access to evidence, effective legal representation, the standard of proof that's applied, and the kind of review that's put in place of decisions made around security certificates. I think it needs to be combined with some sort of policy that, at the very least, actively prefers criminal prosecution over the use of immigration remedies, for the reasons I've highlighted before. Immigration remedies very often will lead to human rights abuses, but they also almost always don't adequately address security concerns.

There needs to be clearly adopted in Canadian law an absolute ban on returning anyone to a situation of torture. That still doesn't exist in Canadian law, and it's long overdue. There should be a maximum length set for detention. As I was saying earlier, I'm not in a position to propose what that period of time should be. I think you'd need to hear from authoritative experts around this, but I think that needs to be part of it. There need to be, obviously, considerable improvements in the conditions around detention, and I'd highlight that this is not only of concern for security certificate detainees. There are others individuals held in immigration proceedings on security-related charges, not using security certificates, for whom detention also goes on and on and on, who are held in provincial correctional facilities without access to programming, with clear problems around family visits, etc. So there's a broader concern there.

I think I would add that there really is a need for some improvement to the kind of monitoring there is in place around immigration detention, particularly in security certificate cases in this country. We need monitoring by some sort of impartial officer or agency who on an ongoing basis stays on top of concerns around conditions and programming. Such an impartial officer or agency would be in a position to receive complaints about abuse and ill treatment, ensure that they are effectively and independently investigated, and that there are actually remedies.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Given that the current Conservative government seems to be in a state of paralysis and doesn't want to move ahead further in any way in discussing the options that are available, and as we heard today, they want to wait until the Supreme Court comes to some decision, I think there has to be much more of an analysis done of the current situation.

Would you recommend maybe a possibility of a public inquiry into the Guantanamo Bay of the north, similar to what was put forward with the Maher Arar affair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You have 30 seconds left in the allotted time.

[Mary Foster]

I think that would be an interesting way of looking at it, setting a clear framework in cooperation with the families of the detainees and looking into the detention at Guantanamo north and the conditions of release as well and the impact that has on the entire family.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

It's eleven o'clock, and normally our committee would wind up at this point. I detect that there is a question or two still to be asked. I'm in the hands of the committee. If each party would like to have one question, if witnesses have time, then the representatives from the Liberals, NDP, Bloc, and Conservatives probably would run us into about ten minutes overtime.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Mr. Siksay had his hand up.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Chair, I thought you were going to come back to me after I deferred to Mr. Karygiannis and Mr. Wilson, so I would ask you to start with me if you're going to do this.