Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 5th, 2006

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your presentation.

I must say that this was one of the most comprehensive and detailed presentations we've had at the committee, given the number of issues dealt with and your analysis. I don't necessarily agree with some of your conclusions, but I must commend you on the level of the analysis you brought forward here today.

I also want to comment that it seems quite humorous that when the Conservatives were in opposition on this side, their discussions during this committee were very much for the RAD, and now that they are on the government side, they seem to be seeing the light and realizing that the RAD may not be such a good thing after all. We'll make sure that in the future we use testimony of what's been said on the other side at these meetings.

The question I have for you is one about analyzing the cost of the RAD. You have $21 million in additional costs to the provinces. Do you have a breakdown of what that would be provincially? What would the cost be for the provinces of British Columbia, Ontario, and Quebec?

[Micheline Aucoin]

No, we don't have that. That was basically just the social assistance cost. We made some assumptions about how many of the claimants would receive social assistance and what the average social assistance payments would be.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Could I ask for a breakdown of what it is on a province-by-province basis?

[Micheline Aucoin]

We would have to make assumptions, of course, about how many claimants would enter which province. Obviously, that would have to be a rough estimate.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

It would be a rough estimate of how the $21 million breaks down and what the costs are going to be for each province.

Have the provinces been consulted as to the implementation of the RAD and on their thoughts with respect to these additional costs that they may or may not have to assume?

[Janet Siddall]

I think I'd go back to the earlier answer. We do consult with the provinces. We have ongoing consultations at the officials level and at the ministerial level, and the overall program is discussed. The concern the provinces have raised is the social services cost to them of the refugee determination program because of the length of time it takes, because they pick up some of those costs until such time as someone is granted permanent residence status or is removed from the country. So in general terms, yes, those discussions have taken place with the provinces.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

If I understand it correctly, the implementation of the RAD is to deal with two problems. First is whether there is adequate review of the cases and second is if there is an appeal process. We've previously discussed the difference between the judicial review's six factors versus the RAD paper review, for which they're just going to be looking at three factors.

The other problem we're trying to solve is the backlog of refugees trying to get into Canada. If the RAD isn't going to address either of those two solutions, do you have other recommendations as to how we could adequately deal with the problem at hand?

[Micheline Aucoin]

If we had three hours, maybe we could. This is the broader issue of a review of the full system, the full asylum system. It is certainly something we always look at. We always discuss with stakeholders and partners within government what the perfect system would look like. We don't have a proposal to put on the table today, that's for sure.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

While I have you here, and if I have a few more minutes, the entire backlog for immigration is estimated to be something like 800,000 people who are trying to come into Canada, 500,000 of whom are in the skilled-worker category. In previous years we've had a target of accepting 225,000 to 250,000 people into Canada. The current minister of the department is setting a new target of close to 250,000 people. Last year we let in 262,000. The demand for workers in western Canada is significant.

Given that the last budget for Citizenship and Immigration has been increased by, I believe, around 40%--you have the numbers--if we've increased the budget for the department, should we not be able to increase the number of new Canadians coming into the country?

[Janet Siddall]

Again, this is not really a refugee issue, but I believe this was discussed with the minister when he was before you.

A very general high-level response is that most of the increase in the budgets of the department has been for settlement programs to improve the services to those immigrants who are already coming to Canada, to help them succeed better, because we're concerned about their outcome.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Wilson.

Mr. Jaffer, please.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It seems my colleague Mr. Blair has a selective memory when it comes to some of the positions the Liberals have had, especially when it comes to RAD, especially when you see that the IRPA was in fact passed in 2001, and for some reason the RAD part was never implemented.

At least now they're being consistent. Maybe it's a thing in government they have some concerns about implementing RAD now. I'm sure they'll continue to support us in our concerns with the implementation of RAD--

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Go right ahead.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

—just to be consistent, I'm sure, because I know he's very concerned about being consistent.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Would you direct all comments through the chair?

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

We had some presentations here about sanctuary and about some of the failed claimants taking sanctuary if in fact their appeals were not accepted. One of their thoughts was that if RAD is implemented, it would limit or stop the cases of sanctuary that are taking place in this country.

I don't know if you want to comment on that, or whether you have any thoughts on that. Many of the churches said that they don't really agree with the idea of sanctuary, but often they have no other recourse, especially because RAD is not in place. I don't know if you'd like to comment on that in particular.

[Micheline Aucoin]

This is not a CIC program, so I don't think we can comment on what churches would do if there were an appeal division.

I do believe that when I read the transcripts of that session, though, some of them said that it would not eliminate the need, or it would not eliminate sanctuaries. So I don't know. We cannot talk for the churches.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay.

Yes, I guess it was just something they said. They said that if RAD were implemented, they felt that the number of cases of sanctuary would disappear, but I guess it's a question of how effective we think RAD would be in dealing with those particular failed cases. I don't know.

[Micheline Aucoin]

We already have a judicial review at the Federal Court, and we know that the number of decisions that are overturned by the Federal Court is not that high. Of course we don't have a crystal ball, but I think it would be surprising if the number of cases overturned by the RAD were very high. So most failed refugee claimants under the current system would probably still be failed refugee claimants at the end of the process.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Even though it seems the costs have increased--and Mr. Siksay identified in his questions what sorts of costs there are and why they've increased to the levels they have--from your overall evaluation of the system and given your experience, is it your advice to the minister that implementing RAD is a good thing to do? Is it something that you advise considering, or is it something you think would just create another level of--

[Janet Siddall]

That's really another policy question that we're not able to answer. Sorry, but it's a question you could certainly put to the minister.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

But you provide advice.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

The minister makes the decisions.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Oh, thank you, Mr. Wilson, but I think they usually ask for advice first before they make a decision, so I'm just asking if there was any advice given.

We've heard some different things. The previous government obviously entered into the safe third country agreement. What were the reasons that were given in the past, by the previous government, to enter into that? What was the reason for entering into that agreement to begin with?

[Micheline Aucoin]

The main reason is responsibility sharing in the handling and the hearing of refugee claims. The idea is to have a more orderly handling of refugee claimants and also to reduce potential abuses of both systems, and to strengthen public confidence in the system.